Debating the use of certain Entmoot messages on Aldesign's website - Page 5

bropous · 02-15-2002, 06:41 PM

I like you, nibs! Good post.

jerseydevil · 02-15-2002, 07:09 PM

I just wanted to say that it is very difficult for people that were not involved to know what was going on. Only a very very small percentage of stuff is on the this thread - most of it was very amicable behind the scenes.

Also it isn't a matter of people taking sides, for one thing I was not against anyone. The only people I cared about were the authors of the story and Feraway who did the artwork (which was not an issue).

This whole issue would not have gone to the courts. All it took was some discussion behind the scenes to clear everything up. We were only consulting legal sources and experts to determine who had the right to the story. We were NOT preparing to press legal action. If anyone is interested I will ask the president and owner of the web hosting company to write up the info he was going to give me. This will back up the claims that LEGALLY the story belongs to the authors and not to Tolkien Trail.
The story will be hosted on Rivendell with the understanding of the authors and it will be hosted on a seperate site. The authors will retain all rights to the story.

With the compromises the authors, Feraway, Tolkien Trail and Aldesign and all others involved should be happy. The situation was not as bad as it may appear on the thread - but I think it was hard to have a discussion over a thread with so many outside people coming in and taking sides.

No one should think ill of either side. We both had our stands on the issue and we discussed them and reached an understanding.

aldesign · 02-15-2002, 07:37 PM

I HAVE STATED THIS ALL ALONG< and i shall say it again.

i did do this for the Authors in the first place, they wanted a home for their story that could eventually be continued into an online comic. I had permission from all involved, and we agreed that Feraway would do the artwork.

Bropous, im not shure what your quib with me is, but as an Author, like all other authors i will always respect your opinion on the site i have produced.

aldesign
peace out

FrodoFriend · 02-15-2002, 11:25 PM

JD, allow me to thank you from the bottom of my heart for clearing this up for us. We never could've gotten it resolved this quickly and cleanly without you!!

Hey, Bropous and Nibs? Could you guys please not try to assign ownership of our story? Bro, if you say your chapter is Entmoot's, fine. But if there was any arguing over the rights (which there won't, since it's resolved), it would be between the writers and the administrators, and be nobody else's business. Sorry, but it ticks me off when people think they can make decisions about MY work.

Many thanks also for Darth Tater and HOBBIT for being understanding and patient and putting up with my confused ramblings.

Rána Eressëa · 02-16-2002, 12:32 AM

Yes, speaking also for me, Sam, and Wayfarer too.

Bregalad · 02-17-2002, 02:30 AM

Wow, i take a little break from the computer world and miss the storm of the century!
I am glad it has passed with little damage, and the sun is shining again. I know that all is resolved, and my comments are no longer necessary, but as you know, I'm the most opinionated Bregalad on the site and I have a few comments I would like to make.

Tolkien Trail is beautiful as is. It would be a great pity for ANYONE to re-design it. The original artwork is charming and eye-catching. It is the fact that TT stays away from the movie pic, pedestrian glam of other Tolkien websites that makes TT stand out in a crowd. Anyone can patch together a bunch of flash from other sources and make a website, but it takes a real artist to design something like Tolkien Trail.

Darth, for the amount of rudeness you have had to put up with in this thread, I thought you were amazingly polite and well behaved. Good boy, you get a biscuit!

Bmilder, you also stayed very cool-headed, despite rampant admin-bashing. I enjoyed your comments.

Personally, I think being able to post on this site is a precious privilage. It is not a right. I would not think of publishing anything on Entmoot without asking the permision of the administration as well as the authors. We are all of us here at the tolerance of the administration. They pay for this site. They fix it when it's broken. They put in the time to make sure this doesn't become a name bashing free-for-all. And for all that, it seems like a lot of the time they are treated like the evil empire. That's shameful. I'm not saying that I'm not at some time going to disagree with a decision of the adminitration, but I hope that when that time comes, I at least have the class to handle myself in a polite and intelligent manner.

To all the administation, I thank you for your hard work. I for one am thrilled to be a part of this website where I can write down all of my opinioated opinions!

Nibs · 02-17-2002, 02:44 AM

Hey, I complimented them first... don't go taking away my thunder...

Ha! Juuuuust kidding... I'm so silly... yes, I want to echo my own words as well as Bregolas' and just thank you guys... I've only enjoyed this website for about a week now, but I already love its atmosphere. No telling how bleak our lives would be without this unique liaison for fandom.

<- [my second official smiley!]

Whoah, I feel emotional... listening to the ending music on "Rudy" will do that to you... Go Sam- I mean Rudy!!

And waaaaiiit a second... whoah, whoah, whoah, Frodo-Friend... I wasn't saying you don't deserve to have your name on it, or any dilly-dally you had cookin' in your head, but rather that the core of the argument (as I could see it) was where web page should go.

I'd rather you not LEAP to conclusions like that and put words in my mouth, if you catch my meaning, Miss Frodo-friend (get it??).

I meant no harm in my post, especially not to you authors... I don't think you need fret either way, though... I'd like to read the cleaned-up version of that episode... quite entertaining... good job.

aldesign · 02-17-2002, 09:32 AM

The cleaned up version of the story is currently offline, and has been for 3days,
im awaiting Authors permission to re-open the site

Samwise, and Wayfarer have currently replied, and are happy, just waiting on the other 4.

aldesign

Darth Tater · 02-17-2002, 10:28 AM

Why thank you other anduin, er, I mean Bregalad

Nibs, your opinion probably makes sense from what you can see in this thread, but you have to understand that this is only half the story. There's a lot that went on behind the scenes that you'd really need to know about to understand this. And quite frankly I see no reason to make it all public at the moment. Everyone who was not involved should just be happy the issue is resolved.

bropous · 02-17-2002, 10:59 AM

FrodoFriend, just as a clarification, I never presumed to speak for you, Rogue Elf, Wayfarer nor samwise on this issue. I spoke only for myself, and made it quite clear the only involvement I had was one [unimportant] chapter, which could be omitted if you folks so desired. To me, it would be like one who wrote the entry for "John Wilkes Booth" to lay claim to the entire "B" section of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hope you didn't get the diametric opposite impression. All I wanted was for the Admins to be considered, as this IS their site, just as your writings are YOUR work. Tu comprends, n'est-ce pas?

I made no decision nor claim as to your work nor anyone else's. Check back. However, in the interests of harmony, to remove confusion, and to show I don't want any say whatsoever over you folks' work, if you folks would prefer, just take the chapter out and let's just call it a dead issue. I'm not the type, FF, to take credit for another's creation, okay? I don't want to dictate to someone what they can do with their creations; all I was trying to do was point out the facts. I have respect for you folks and don't want this tempest in a teapot to hinder good Mooting.

Just as an aside, I think you folks did one heck of a job on that story. All of you.

Let's just pack this tent and get back on the trail, what say?

Bregalad · 02-17-2002, 03:24 PM

Darth! I'm not anduin! Not that I would mind it, she's way cuter than me, but I'm way sillier, and silliness is very important don't you know! But if I was anduin I'd have to use that nasty machintosh, icky. But I'd also get to live in her cool house with her cute doo-dah. Man, tough call, but I guess I like being me!

Darth Tater · 02-17-2002, 03:45 PM

Sure, right, whatever you say Liz

Nibs · 02-17-2002, 05:24 PM

Okay, I stand corrected, but then why was this all posted up here at the 'moot, where anyone can post their opinion? I tried to make unobtrusive observations, according to all the posts, and I backed up who I thought was in the right (which doesn't matter now). And now I get scolded by both sides because of my comments...

I suppose I had no part in it in the first place, which is all too true, but I don't think I really bashed anybody; at least, not as much as I got in return for my comments.

My goodness... I've only been here about a week and I'm already emotional about how I'm treated here... I need to lie down for awhile.

jerseydevil · 02-17-2002, 05:36 PM

Well I wasn't blasting you really. It's just that a lot of people started saying stuff. I think both sides would rather not have to rehash the whole thing. I was making a general statement to let people know - please don't base your opinions on just this thread. Also I didn't really think people should be taking sides.

It was basically brought into the open through this thread accidently. This was not the orginal name of the thread - but after Aldesign posted the URL and then Tater came back with his thoughts - it sort of blew up into this whole thing.

Now we're all friends again and everythign is fine.

Darth Tater · 02-17-2002, 06:03 PM

Nibs I'm sorry if you felt I snapped at you. I was just saying that you don't know the whole story.

Nibs · 02-17-2002, 07:01 PM

Well, I knew that I wasn't clear on the complete story most of all... however, if it was being discussed on the side, why was the thread allowed to continue? Were my messages a little biased? I hope not, because that wasn't at all the intent...

Yes, we're all friends here... but don't gimme no grief.

Darth Tater · 02-17-2002, 10:40 PM

I'm sorry if we made a little mistake like confusing you folks, but this situation just exploded and had to be dealt with! We did that in a very timely manner and I think everything's turned out quite well! Geesh, once again I must ask that you give the administration a break! We may be all powerful, but we're only human!

bropous · 02-18-2002, 11:59 AM

What? The Admins are human??? Well, I for one am crestfallen. I thought you guys were some rogue element of remaining Ents who could type and write code....

Wayfarer · 02-18-2002, 07:26 PM

Just for the Record, I'd like to say that I don't care.

I hope that is enough for those of you who haven't yet gotten around to sending me a private message asking what I think.

As usual: 'Irony, Satire, Sarcasm-Wayfarer'

02-15-2002, 06:41 PM	#81
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I like you, nibs! Good post. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-15-2002, 07:09 PM	#82
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I just wanted to say that it is very difficult for people that were not involved to know what was going on. Only a very very small percentage of stuff is on the this thread - most of it was very amicable behind the scenes. Also it isn't a matter of people taking sides, for one thing I was not against anyone. The only people I cared about were the authors of the story and Feraway who did the artwork (which was not an issue). This whole issue would not have gone to the courts. All it took was some discussion behind the scenes to clear everything up. We were only consulting legal sources and experts to determine who had the right to the story. We were NOT preparing to press legal action. If anyone is interested I will ask the president and owner of the web hosting company to write up the info he was going to give me. This will back up the claims that LEGALLY the story belongs to the authors and not to Tolkien Trail. The story will be hosted on Rivendell with the understanding of the authors and it will be hosted on a seperate site. The authors will retain all rights to the story. With the compromises the authors, Feraway, Tolkien Trail and Aldesign and all others involved should be happy. The situation was not as bad as it may appear on the thread - but I think it was hard to have a discussion over a thread with so many outside people coming in and taking sides. No one should think ill of either side. We both had our stands on the issue and we discussed them and reached an understanding. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

02-15-2002, 07:37 PM	#83
aldesign Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Uk Posts: 447	I HAVE STATED THIS ALL ALONG< and i shall say it again. i did do this for the Authors in the first place, they wanted a home for their story that could eventually be continued into an online comic. I had permission from all involved, and we agreed that Feraway would do the artwork. Bropous, im not shure what your quib with me is, but as an Author, like all other authors i will always respect your opinion on the site i have produced. aldesign peace out __________________ The funniest story on the net, made by entmoot fanatics, visit it @ FOTMB.com FRODO LIVES!! GET FREE AVATARS HERE!

02-15-2002, 11:25 PM	#84
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	JD, allow me to thank you from the bottom of my heart for clearing this up for us. We never could've gotten it resolved this quickly and cleanly without you!! Hey, Bropous and Nibs? Could you guys please not try to assign ownership of our story? Bro, if you say your chapter is Entmoot's, fine. But if there was any arguing over the rights (which there won't, since it's resolved), it would be between the writers and the administrators, and be nobody else's business. Sorry, but it ticks me off when people think they can make decisions about MY work. Many thanks also for Darth Tater and HOBBIT for being understanding and patient and putting up with my confused ramblings. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-16-2002, 12:32 AM	#85
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	Yes, speaking also for me, Sam, and Wayfarer too. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 02-16-2002 at 12:36 AM.

02-17-2002, 02:30 AM	#86
Bregalad Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: KY Posts: 217	Wow, i take a little break from the computer world and miss the storm of the century! I am glad it has passed with little damage, and the sun is shining again. I know that all is resolved, and my comments are no longer necessary, but as you know, I'm the most opinionated Bregalad on the site and I have a few comments I would like to make. Tolkien Trail is beautiful as is. It would be a great pity for ANYONE to re-design it. The original artwork is charming and eye-catching. It is the fact that TT stays away from the movie pic, pedestrian glam of other Tolkien websites that makes TT stand out in a crowd. Anyone can patch together a bunch of flash from other sources and make a website, but it takes a real artist to design something like Tolkien Trail. Darth, for the amount of rudeness you have had to put up with in this thread, I thought you were amazingly polite and well behaved. Good boy, you get a biscuit! Bmilder, you also stayed very cool-headed, despite rampant admin-bashing. I enjoyed your comments. Personally, I think being able to post on this site is a precious privilage. It is not a right. I would not think of publishing anything on Entmoot without asking the permision of the administration as well as the authors. We are all of us here at the tolerance of the administration. They pay for this site. They fix it when it's broken. They put in the time to make sure this doesn't become a name bashing free-for-all. And for all that, it seems like a lot of the time they are treated like the evil empire. That's shameful. I'm not saying that I'm not at some time going to disagree with a decision of the adminitration, but I hope that when that time comes, I at least have the class to handle myself in a polite and intelligent manner. To all the administation, I thank you for your hard work. I for one am thrilled to be a part of this website where I can write down all of my opinioated opinions! __________________ "They have called me that ever since I said yes to an elder Ent before he had finished his question" -Quickbeam This post property of Entmoot.

02-17-2002, 02:44 AM	#87
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Hey, I complimented them first... don't go taking away my thunder... Ha! Juuuuust kidding... I'm so silly... yes, I want to echo my own words as well as Bregolas' and just thank you guys... I've only enjoyed this website for about a week now, but I already love its atmosphere. No telling how bleak our lives would be without this unique liaison for fandom. <- [my second official smiley!] Whoah, I feel emotional... listening to the ending music on "Rudy" will do that to you... Go Sam- I mean Rudy!! And waaaaiiit a second... whoah, whoah, whoah, Frodo-Friend... I wasn't saying you don't deserve to have your name on it, or any dilly-dally you had cookin' in your head, but rather that the core of the argument (as I could see it) was where web page should go. I'd rather you not LEAP to conclusions like that and put words in my mouth, if you catch my meaning, Miss Frodo-friend (get it??). I meant no harm in my post, especially not to you authors... I don't think you need fret either way, though... I'd like to read the cleaned-up version of that episode... quite entertaining... good job. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us. Last edited by Nibs : 02-17-2002 at 02:55 AM.

02-17-2002, 09:32 AM	#88
aldesign Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Uk Posts: 447	The cleaned up version of the story is currently offline, and has been for 3days, im awaiting Authors permission to re-open the site Samwise, and Wayfarer have currently replied, and are happy, just waiting on the other 4. aldesign __________________ The funniest story on the net, made by entmoot fanatics, visit it @ FOTMB.com FRODO LIVES!! GET FREE AVATARS HERE!

02-17-2002, 10:28 AM	#89
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Why thank you other anduin, er, I mean Bregalad Nibs, your opinion probably makes sense from what you can see in this thread, but you have to understand that this is only half the story. There's a lot that went on behind the scenes that you'd really need to know about to understand this. And quite frankly I see no reason to make it all public at the moment. Everyone who was not involved should just be happy the issue is resolved. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

02-17-2002, 10:59 AM	#90
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	FrodoFriend, just as a clarification, I never presumed to speak for you, Rogue Elf, Wayfarer nor samwise on this issue. I spoke only for myself, and made it quite clear the only involvement I had was one [unimportant] chapter, which could be omitted if you folks so desired. To me, it would be like one who wrote the entry for "John Wilkes Booth" to lay claim to the entire "B" section of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Hope you didn't get the diametric opposite impression. All I wanted was for the Admins to be considered, as this IS their site, just as your writings are YOUR work. Tu comprends, n'est-ce pas? I made no decision nor claim as to your work nor anyone else's. Check back. However, in the interests of harmony, to remove confusion, and to show I don't want any say whatsoever over you folks' work, if you folks would prefer, just take the chapter out and let's just call it a dead issue. I'm not the type, FF, to take credit for another's creation, okay? I don't want to dictate to someone what they can do with their creations; all I was trying to do was point out the facts. I have respect for you folks and don't want this tempest in a teapot to hinder good Mooting. Just as an aside, I think you folks did one heck of a job on that story. All of you. Let's just pack this tent and get back on the trail, what say? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. Last edited by bropous : 02-17-2002 at 11:10 AM.

02-17-2002, 03:24 PM	#91
Bregalad Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: KY Posts: 217	Darth! I'm not anduin! Not that I would mind it, she's way cuter than me, but I'm way sillier, and silliness is very important don't you know! But if I was anduin I'd have to use that nasty machintosh, icky. But I'd also get to live in her cool house with her cute doo-dah. Man, tough call, but I guess I like being me! __________________ "They have called me that ever since I said yes to an elder Ent before he had finished his question" -Quickbeam This post property of Entmoot.

02-17-2002, 03:45 PM	#92
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Sure, right, whatever you say Liz __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

02-17-2002, 05:24 PM	#93
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Okay, I stand corrected, but then why was this all posted up here at the 'moot, where anyone can post their opinion? I tried to make unobtrusive observations, according to all the posts, and I backed up who I thought was in the right (which doesn't matter now). And now I get scolded by both sides because of my comments... I suppose I had no part in it in the first place, which is all too true, but I don't think I really bashed anybody; at least, not as much as I got in return for my comments. My goodness... I've only been here about a week and I'm already emotional about how I'm treated here... I need to lie down for awhile. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

02-17-2002, 05:36 PM	#94
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Well I wasn't blasting you really. It's just that a lot of people started saying stuff. I think both sides would rather not have to rehash the whole thing. I was making a general statement to let people know - please don't base your opinions on just this thread. Also I didn't really think people should be taking sides. It was basically brought into the open through this thread accidently. This was not the orginal name of the thread - but after Aldesign posted the URL and then Tater came back with his thoughts - it sort of blew up into this whole thing. Now we're all friends again and everythign is fine. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

02-17-2002, 06:03 PM	#95
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Nibs I'm sorry if you felt I snapped at you. I was just saying that you don't know the whole story. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

02-17-2002, 07:01 PM	#96
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Well, I knew that I wasn't clear on the complete story most of all... however, if it was being discussed on the side, why was the thread allowed to continue? Were my messages a little biased? I hope not, because that wasn't at all the intent... Yes, we're all friends here... but don't gimme no grief. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us. Last edited by Nibs : 02-17-2002 at 07:03 PM.

02-17-2002, 10:40 PM	#97
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	I'm sorry if we made a little mistake like confusing you folks, but this situation just exploded and had to be dealt with! We did that in a very timely manner and I think everything's turned out quite well! Geesh, once again I must ask that you give the administration a break! We may be all powerful, but we're only human! __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

02-18-2002, 11:59 AM	#98
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	What? The Admins are human??? Well, I for one am crestfallen. I thought you guys were some rogue element of remaining Ents who could type and write code.... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-18-2002, 07:26 PM	#99
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Just for the Record, I'd like to say that I don't care. I hope that is enough for those of you who haven't yet gotten around to sending me a private message asking what I think. As usual: 'Irony, Satire, Sarcasm-Wayfarer' __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

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