What's up with the support for porn and prostitution?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by katya

I think... that the thing that is wrong, that should be punished, if anything, is abuse, not the filming/distribution of pornography or the practice of prostitution. I know it's hard but, I find that I cannot approve punishing or restricting something I do not feel is wrong just because of the risks associated with it. I think that is attacking the wrong target.

To suggest that porn be illegal on the basis of furthering safety is creating yet another thing that is bad or criminal that need not be, and I don't really like the sound of that.

I could try to explain to you how porn hurts you personally, but look at the response I've been getting to facts about the porn industry itself. I doubt the liberals on the board, if told that making stone countertops abuses children (which it often does) would be talking about the importance of preserving upscale kitchens. No one's entitled to "liberties" (also known as "privileges") that come at the expense of other people's health and safety.

Here's the harder aspect. Porn is one of the engines of establishing what is culturally normative. Its influence helps set the rules for dating, dressing, and interacting that affect everyone. As its impact becomes more widespread (through mass media and the web, for two examples) the standards of general behavior are more often modeled on it. This is, in my opinion, and the opinion of many, a harm to the entire society.

You may believe (and I won't discuss here how people develop such belief systems) that you are not impacted by the widespread notion that oral sex isn't 'sex' and the impact that behavior has had on young teenagers. You may say that your behavior is your choice, and that if people don't want to do something, they don't have to. You may say that even if young men expect that, and it isn't a big deal, young women still retain choices.

And that would be fine, if it was a level playing field. But the reason 12 year olds can't buy a car or get married is because we, as a society, think they're not ready to make decisions that permanent. Sorry to say, a lot of decisions about sexual activity have even more long lasting effects than car purchasing. Why should they be making decisions in a culture which is constantly sending them this porn-derived message?

You may not see, because your basis of comparison is short, how the culture has changed on this issue, and what the impact on us has been. But in my opinion, it constitutes grave harm to you.

Like pollution, it has environmental consequences that transcend individual "choice" and, so, is a proper topic for governmental intervention.

[katya]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I could try to explain to you how porn hurts you personally, but look at the response I've been getting to facts about the porn industry itself. I doubt the liberals on the board, if told that making stone countertops abuses children (which it often does) would be talking about the importance of preserving upscale kitchens. No one's entitled to "liberties" (also known as "privileges") that come at the expense of other people's health and safety.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It's not like I'm saying viewers are entitled to watch porn, (though they are, considering it's already there) but that people should be allowed to make it.

Here's the harder aspect. Porn is one of the engines of establishing what is culturally normative. Its influence helps set the rules for dating, dressing, and interacting that affect everyone.

So does regular TV, music, books, radio, internet, movies... Are you suggesting we ban all media that contains messages about society that some may see as harmful? Or is it on a scale where only the most harmful media is banned, and in that case what is so wrong with porn that shows merely a naked person, or sex activity that is completely morally acceptable (besides for the fact that it's being filmed and distributed, and in that case is any sort of nudity in movies out too?). Or maybe you'll just ban what you define to be pornography simply because it's porn.

You may believe (and I won't discuss here how people develop such belief systems) that you are not impacted by the widespread notion that oral sex isn't 'sex' and the impact that behavior has had on young teenagers. You may say that your behavior is your choice, and that if people don't want to do something, they don't have to. You may say that even if young men expect that, and it isn't a big deal, young women still retain choices.

To the contrary. I believe I am impacted fully by all the widespread notions of society, that my whole personality is determined completely by the combination of experience and genetics. I think oral sex counts as sex though.

And that would be fine, if it was a level playing field. But the reason 12 year olds can't buy a car or get married is because we, as a society, think they're not ready to make decisions that permanent. Sorry to say, a lot of decisions about sexual activity have even more long lasting effects than car purchasing. Why should they be making decisions in a culture which is constantly sending them this porn-derived message?

I don't blame porn, I blame society as a whole. And I think the answer has more to do with increasing positive messages. And better education.

You may not see, because your basis of comparison is short, how the culture has changed on this issue, and what the impact on us has been. But in my opinion, it constitutes grave harm to you.

What, because I'm young? Well that's true. Not that I don't think there are a lot of factors involved in any real societal change, but yes, you're right.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

sex activity that is completely morally acceptable (besides for the fact that it's being filmed and distributed, and in that case is any sort of nudity in movies out too?).

Are you saying that nudity and sex have the same effects on those who see them? I'd have to disagree with you there.

P. S. Sis, every time I see you talk about 'the liberals', I just have to crack a smile. Good on you for being neither solidly left- nor solidly right-wing. We need more people like that in the world.

[katya]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Are you saying that nudity and sex have the same effects on those who see them? I'd have to disagree with you there.

What do you mean, that nudity/sex has a different effect on those who see it than other media? That wasn't really what I was saying...

[Lotesse]

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with either nudity or sex. "Wrong" is when pre-pubescent children are used as models, dressed up as sexually cognizant and intentionally sexually alluring twenty-five year olds, to sell products, using - yes, sex. There is a disappearance of childhood happening right now in modern society; long gone are the days when you could be protected from grown-up sexual innuendo by the grown-ups running the world. I was skimming through this awesome collection of essays entitled
YThe Disappearance of Childhood" which my sister had at her house when I visited her last week - oo, I wish I could remember the author's name, but he made some excellent points.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by katya

I don't blame porn, I blame society as a whole.

We are society. You, me, everyone here, everyone. We are all society as a whole. It's like that one old punk song, can't remember I think maybe Dead Kennedy's? "Society made me who I am! I'ts not my fault!" Or something like that; anyway, we can't go around blaming society when after all it is you and me, not some mysterious faceless entity which controls us. It is US.

[katya]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

We are society. You, me, everyone here, everyone. We are all society as a whole. It's like that one old punk song, can't remember I think maybe Dead Kennedy's? "Society made me who I am! I'ts not my fault!" Or something like that; anyway, we can't go around blaming society when after all it is you and me, not some mysterious faceless entity which controls us. It is US.

I know, trust me, I've thought about that many a time. I never said I wasn't evil either. Oh, but that's the beautiful part though. I am part of society, therefor if I change, then just a little bit, society changes too. We must "be the change we wish to see in the world".

The other thing that gets me is people's externalization. Because you're absolutely right. Society is us. It's not like there's this evil spirit inhabiting people that makes them destroy our moral values and our children, some monster to destroy. It's us as society that creates it, and I that's why like i said before, it needs to change from the inside, not be subdued.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

No one's entitled to "liberties" (also known as "privileges") that come at the expense of other people's health and safety..

Which is why making that type of porn is already illegal.

The stone tops aren't, although I wouldn't buy one. Should the Welsh granite quarries be forced to close because of the indentured labourers enslaved in some Indian quarries?

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Why should they be making decisions in a culture which is constantly sending them this porn-derived message?

Show me one good reason to believe that getting rid of the porn would get rid of this message?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by katya

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It's not like I'm saying viewers are entitled to watch porn, (though they are, considering it's already there) but that people should be allowed to make it.


So does regular TV, music, books, radio, internet, movies... Are you suggesting we ban all media that contains messages about society that some may see as harmful? Or is it on a scale where only the most harmful media is banned, and in that case what is so wrong with porn that shows merely a naked person, or sex activity that is completely morally acceptable (besides for the fact that it's being filmed and distributed, and in that case is any sort of nudity in movies out too?). Or maybe you'll just ban what you define to be pornography simply because it's porn.

To the contrary. I believe I am impacted fully by all the widespread notions of society, that my whole personality is determined completely by the combination of experience and genetics. I think oral sex counts as sex though.
I don't blame porn, I blame society as a whole. And I think the answer has more to do with increasing positive messages. And better education.

What, because I'm young? Well that's true. Not that I don't think there are a lot of factors involved in any real societal change, but yes, you're right.

katya, some of these are red herrings. Pornography has a definition, muddled as it is.

" and in that case what is so wrong with porn that shows merely a naked person, or sex activity that is completely morally acceptable"

This wouldn't be porn, in many venues. That's why you don't have to be 18 or 21 to go to the art museum and look at a Rubens. The standard of judgement used to be worded as "redeeming social value". Pornographers writing lengthy books about sex with animals started with a foreward that said, "The problem of people who engage in devient (sic) sexual practices with animals is a hidden but serious one in our society. We hope, by publishing this first person testimony, to cast some light on it and make providing help to these people easier." That was their legal out if they were hauled into court.

But the other part of this is something like "predominantly used for sexual gratification." And that's the big one for online purveyors of naked pictures. Because, really, we know that no one is looking at or hosting those sites so that the general population can see and appreciate a wide variety of women's shapes and body types. They're just for...self-gratification.

Now, I have to say, I'm the jealous type. So it doesn't matter a bit to me whether my SO is thinking about his ex or Miss April when he's wanking. Unless it's me, we have a problem.

But my internet has no filter. And in addition to "vanilla" material, takes about 3 nano-seconds to wind up with 5 screens of more... exotic fare. Upskirts and hidden camera, for example. You no longer have to be drunk at Mardi Gras to find yourself a porn star on a paid site, let alone you-tube. All you have to do is rent the wrong apartment, or try on a dress. Nice to have a Master's degree in Nursing and a wing full of patients whose minds are full of 'Naughty Nursies." Ask someone on a breast-feeding board how many men come along hoping to talk about THAT. Page after page of material sorted by race. Doesn't do much for our progress towards "human race" when "Asian bondage" is practically one word, on the net.

When Madonna first showed up, she was a scandal. It may surprise many to hear that dressing like a stripper was unusual, once. If your bra STRAP showed, you went back and changed. And here was a girl wearing a bra in public.

How we wish some of the starlet's today would go BUY underwear to display in public. Because we've moved on from that, Haven't we?

Now, I happen to be in favor of both nudity and sex. That's one of the reasons I don't like seeing them treated this way, any more than people who "love horses" generally enjoy recipes for them. I just don't think they're wholesale activities.

[katya]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

katya, some of these are red herrings. Pornography has a definition, muddled as it is.

That wasn't the point.

Now, I have to say, I'm the jealous type. So it doesn't matter a bit to me whether my SO is thinking about his ex or Miss April when he's wanking. Unless it's me, we have a problem.

I'm not sure what that has do do with anything. And if I caught my SO thinking about his ex I'd probably start crying and be inconsolable for a week. The difference is precisely that guys (hopefully) care(d) about their exes as people, had an emotional attachment.

Now, I happen to be in favor of both nudity and sex. That's one of the reasons I don't like seeing them treated this way, any more than people who "love horses" generally enjoy recipes for them. I just don't think they're wholesale activities.

I don't like seeing nudity and sex treated as dirty and evil either. I was raised Catholic, and also I ended up trying to teach myself Christianity on my own as a young kid, and it all messed up my perceptions in the complete opposite way that you're talking about. It kind of screwed me up. So there you go, there's my bias. Not that I'm condoning all type of porn either.

[Insidious Rex]

Heres an interesting article someone posted on another site about the porn issue...

The Porn Myth

Its interesting because it seems to have the opposite worry about porn from what we are seeing here. Far from being a sky is falling phenomenon that is leading to the creation of millions of rape crazy sickos keen on hurting women. Instead, according to Naomi Wolf, it seems to be creating a standard that makes it HARDER for men to find an interest in real live females in an intimate way. Its causing an everything is normal mentality that makes the normal imperfections of real females more of a problem then they were apparently pre-internet. Personally, I think the truth lies somewhere in between and porn will not be the end of our society…

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I could try to explain to you how porn hurts you personally, but look at the response I've been getting to facts about the porn industry itself. I doubt the liberals on the board, if told that making stone countertops abuses children (which it often does) would be talking about the importance of preserving upscale kitchens. No one's entitled to "liberties" (also known as "privileges") that come at the expense of other people's health and safety.

No, the liberals on the board would be talking about the necessity of making and enforcing laws against the exploitation of children in the stone countertop industry, whereas you, apparently, would be leading the campaign to ban stone countertops. Bad analogy.

Here's the harder aspect. Porn is one of the engines of establishing what is culturally normative. Its influence helps set the rules for dating, dressing, and interacting that affect everyone. As its impact becomes more widespread (through mass media and the web, for two examples) the standards of general behavior are more often modeled on it. This is, in my opinion, and the opinion of many, a harm to the entire society.

You may believe (and I won't discuss here how people develop such belief systems) that you are not impacted by the widespread notion that oral sex isn't 'sex' and the impact that behavior has had on young teenagers. You may say that your behavior is your choice, and that if people don't want to do something, they don't have to. You may say that even if young men expect that, and it isn't a big deal, young women still retain choices.

Well, apparently one of the main effects is a decrease in teen pregnancy

And that would be fine, if it was a level playing field. But the reason 12 year olds can't buy a car or get married is because we, as a society, think they're not ready to make decisions that permanent. Sorry to say, a lot of decisions about sexual activity have even more long lasting effects than car purchasing. Why should they be making decisions in a culture which is constantly sending them this porn-derived message?

Which is a very good reason for restricting access to pornography to minors.
Again, the argument you are making is that since buying a car or getting married is forbidden to minors, then buying a car or getting married should be forbidden to adults.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

k
But my internet has no filter. And in addition to "vanilla" material, takes about 3 nano-seconds to wind up with 5 screens of more... exotic fare.

It also takes about three nanoseconds to find a filter. If, for whatever reason, you choose not to install one, you can hardly complain about what you can find on the net. Or you could always choose not to go to that...exotic fare.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by katya

What do you mean, that nudity/sex has a different effect on those who see it than other media? That wasn't really what I was saying...

I mean, are you saying that those who see pornography, and those who see nudity, are affected in the same way?

Originally Posted by sis

Now, I happen to be in favor of both nudity and sex. That's one of the reasons I don't like seeing them treated this way

Exactly.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

No, the liberals on the board would be talking about the necessity of making and enforcing laws against the exploitation of children in the stone countertop industry, whereas you, apparently, would be leading the campaign to ban stone countertops. Bad analogy.

Do you have a law preventing the exploitation of workers in the porn industry? Great! Tell me what it says.

Well, apparently one of the main effects is a decrease in teen pregnancy

You're not actually suggesting there are fewer teen pregnancies because girls are giving more head as teens, are you? Because that would be an exceedingly unlovely picture of youth.

Which is a very good reason for restricting access to pornography to minors.
Again, the argument you are making is that since buying a car or getting married is forbidden to minors, then buying a car or getting married should be forbidden to adults.

The original impetus for this thread was the 'have your own coountry" thread, where I was surprised by the number of people banning age of consent laws or restrictions on porn. In picturing countries with none of those protections for children I wondered why porn was considered so acceptable. So, my discussion here is (largely) about the impact of porn on minors, even where access is supposedly restricted.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

It also takes about three nanoseconds to find a filter. If, for whatever reason, you choose not to install one, you can hardly complain about what you can find on the net. Or you could always choose not to go to that...exotic fare.

I mention the lack of filter because I'm not sure that when we discuss "porn" here we're all talking about the same body of work.
I would guess that many opinions on "prostitution" draw more on Richard Gere and Julia Roberts than Aileen Wuornos.

[katya]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

I mean, are you saying that those who see pornography, and those who see nudity, are affected in the same way?

No, I wasn't saying that either. I was just talking about making porn illegal on the basis of it sending wrong messages to people.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, that was the general aim of what you were saying; I am referring to specifically when you implied that we would have to ban nudity from movies if we banned porn.

[katya]

Mmm.... I was asking Sis what she thought would be the rules on what goes and why (in an illustrative way..). Basically, if porn is bad because of showing nudity/sex that was recorded on camera (while it should be a private thing, etc.) then regular films that show it are thus bad too. On the other hand, if it's bad because it's sending a bad message to children about sex, then so are other films and should they thus be censored too? Type thing. I was specifically replying to the bit about "Its influence helps set the rules for dating, dressing, and interacting..."

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by katya

Mmm.... I was asking Sis what she thought would be the rules on what goes and why (in an illustrative way..)

I used to have a much more robust picture of "consent." I used to think, "Hey, if someone is over, say, 10, and they're cool about being photographed so someone can get their jollies, as long as they aren't injured in a way that requires medical care, no harm, no foul."

After dealing with people from various backgrounds whose ability to "consent" has been desperately compromised by systematic mistreatment, over years, I'm not so sanguine, any more.That's how I became more interested in the role of the viewer. I think people have to ask themselves, as the audience of this material, why it's okay. I'd like to see the assumptions move. We have a long debate, and people say to me, "Prove that this material isn't okay. Prove to me that removing this material will improve things." And my response to that is, "Life is short. If what you're doing with your time isn't demonstrably positive, you're wasting it."

That attitude gives us a quite different list of hobbies, of course. It surely gives us a different list of movies to watch. But the ASPCA will sit on a movie set so that animals aren't harmed during filming a movie. If someone offered to do to animals what is the actual point of many porn films, they'd file a complaint. Consider me the ASPCA for women. I'm filing a complaint.

As far as the government goes, ordinary safety conditions on a porn shoot would be good. You'd like union type medical benefits and working hours for the actors, for example. And I think that some form of 'community standard' could still be applied to the material.

But I think the content of cable TV should more closely be monitored, like broadcast TV. I think there should be less access for children. And the internet is clearly an insane distributor. Probabaly that should be resolved through taxation.

Most of the people here can look forward to inheriting the large costs of this party. The impact on fertility alone will continue to rise. The cost of cancer treatment from sexually transmitted disease. The social costs of generations of people who parent like Britney.

I just don't think you'll really want to be left holding the bag, on this one.