Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions

[Lotesse]

"The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them. "

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933




"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions. "

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]




"We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.' "

-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933

[Lotesse]

"In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.... I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty.... If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths.... Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937





"National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a 'volkic' political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship.... We will not allow mystically-minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.... Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men. "

-Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept. 1938.



"The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle. If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument. "

-Adolf Hitler, in his proclamation to the German People on 1 Jan. 1939




"Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views (Einstellung), nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.... The Churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the State... Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favoured in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, &c., it enjoys immunity from taxation.
It is therefore, to put mildly-- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.... I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?
3. The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service. It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions. In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.... There are ten thousands and ten thousands of priests of all the Christian Confessions who perform their ecclesiastical duties just as well as or probably better than the political agitators without ever coming into conflict with the laws of the State.... This State has only once intervened in the internal regulation of the Churches, that is when I myself in 1933 endeavoured to unite the weak and divided Protestant Churches of the different States into one great and powerful Evangelical Church of the Reich. That attempt failed through the opposition of the bishops of some States; it was therefore abandoned. For it is in the last resort not our task to defend or even to strengthen the Evangelical Church through violence against its own representatives.... But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as servant of God we shall protect, the priest as political enemy of the German State we shall destroy. "

-Adolf Hitler, a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939



"If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbour, i.e. the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians. For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work. "


-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the "Old Guard" at Munich on 24 Feb. 1939

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

You guys also persistently keep ignoring the parallel I drew between Hitler with his Christianity and bin Laden with his Islam.

I have ignored that parallel because it's just so obviously flawed. Osama Bin Laden was wealthy, respected and powerful before he challenged the US. He exchanged this life for this: He has lost much of his wealth, and he is forced to be constantly on the run in barren wastelands, always moving from place to place and in fear of his life.

Osama Bin Laden has given up an enormous amount for his religion. It's clear that he believes what he's saying.

Hitler is a totally different story. Whereas Bin Laden had much to lose by practicing his religious beliefs, Hitler had much to gain by claiming to be Christian. Hitler had massive public support to gain by making Christian statements, enormous political motive. He had wealth to gain through his policies. The two men were clearly very different. While Hitler's "Christianity" is easy to doubt, as he had clear motive to claim it, Bin Laden's fervor for his religion is absurd to doubt.

I find it very bizarre that you find Hitler's speeches convincing, particularly in view of his treatment of Christians and attempt to change his state so that it worshipped him.

[Lief Erikson]

For fear that this post will go ignored, I will submit it again, here. Please pay special attention to the quotations at the end of this.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Lief, based on my previous conversations with her and opa about the war, she has stated on more than one occasion that she was aware of the "death" camps during the war. I don't think she was aware of the scale of the persecution, but certainly, she knew that there were disappearances.

Yes, I am sure that she knew of disappearances. I think probably most of Germany knew the Jews were being taken somewhere, but more than that wasn't clear. If the new study you posted a link to catches on and becomes broadly accepted by historians, I will probably accept it (for myself) as a strong evidence that the Germans knew about the Holocaust while it was happening.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

You will understand that given that her husband has just passed away, I will not be pestering her directly about this, though.

Yes, that is totally understandable. I'm really sorry about that, for her and your sake .

Here's a quotation from the Holocaust Museum that should be heeded. I know I've already posted this twice, but I don't think I've heard anyone respond to it, except a little bit brownjenkins.

Originally Posted by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

The term "Church Struggle" refers to the strained relationship between church and state in Germany in the 1870s and then again during the Nazi regime. Although Nazi policy at first seemed to tolerate church autonomy, it soon became clear that official tolerance of Christian religious groups would last only as long as the churches accepted synchronization--the alignment of the church, along with other areas of society, with Nazi goals. The Roman Catholic and Protestant churches met the Nazi rise to power with attempts to retain control of their respective institutions and the rights of their brethren to worship freely and openly.

It's clear that there was friction between the churches and Hitler. The mainstream German churches did not express approval for Hitler's actions, but actually worked to protect Jews in their churches. We also know that some Christians did object and ended up in concentration or death camps for their choice. Here's information about Hitler's National Socialist Party, and others of Hitler's policies toward Christianity.

Originally Posted by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

In a further attempt to synchronize religious thought with state policy, the Nazis sought, unsuccessfully, to establish a unified national church. Hitler appointed a Reich Bishop, Ludwig Mueller, who led a "German Christian" movement within the church. Mueller sought to synthesize Nazi ideology and Protestant tradition and to agitate for a "people's church" based on "good Aryan blood." This movement had gained 600,000 adherents by the mid-1930s. The Nazi government also attempted to supplant Christian worship with secular Nazi party celebrations which adopted many symbols of religious ritual but instead glorified the party and the Fuehrer. Efforts were also made to dilute clerical influence on religious instruction in the public schools, as well as to curb the activities and influence the curricula of religious schools.

The Wikipedia article has stated that the concensus of modern historical research at this time is that the German people did NOT know about the Holocaust. We also know they were caught in a web of lies by Hitler. Hitler said Poland attacked Germany and then when they retaliated, all the other Western countries unjustly attacked Germany. The Germans believed they were the injured party, and they had bias toward trusting Hitler because he had restored their country's economy and pride.

The Holocaust Museum resources show that there was tension between Hitler and maintream German churches, and that the Nazi Party embraced clearly anti-Christian policies.

This article's quotation from Wikipedia strongly indicates Hitler was not a Christian, and states that Christianity's being on the decline in Germany helped to strengthen the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Despite Germany's long history as the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the birthplace of the Reformation, Christianity was in a decline during the rise of the Nazi Party. Some of the factors leading to this decline were the after affects of World War I which challenged "traditional" European viewpoints, the decline in political parties backed by the Catholic Church. The decline of the Centre Party Germany was an enabler for the rise of the Nazi Party.

Hitler often adapted elements of Christian theology into his speeches. However he and other Nazi leaders rather subscribed either to a mixture of modern (pseudo-)scientific theories, as Hitler himself did, or to mysticism and occultism, which was especially strong in the SS. Central to both groupings was the belief in German racial superiority.

Note also that the Wikipedia article states that a Protestant group called the Confessing Church were the ones that attempted to assassinate Hitler.

Here's an article that takes quotations from several history books and analyzes Hitler's "Christianity." It comes to the conclusion that he was not a Christian: http://www.geocities.com/mikem2u/hitler.html

Here are some quotations the article cites from Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.

The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably...the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year of 800.
The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany.

The National Church declares that to it, and therefore to the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer's Mein Kampf is the greatest of all documents. It...not only contains the greatest but it embodies the purest and truest ethics for the present and future life of our nation.

The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.

On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampf (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.

On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels...and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika. (Shirer, pp. 332-333.)

Here is an excerpt from the article and some cited quotes from Hitler.

Now it's true that in his youth Hitler must have had, at least for a time, some kind of Christian belief, since he tells us that as a boy he had a passing interest in becoming a clergyman. But that ended. At some time in his life Hitler apparently turned completely against Christianity.

Yes, he did make public claims to Christianity even while he was in power and persecuting Christians. But those public professions were simply lies. He made them in order to win the support of the German people, but in reality he wanted to do away with Christianity as it had hitherto been known and pervert it into a mere facade for Nazism and worship of himself as the ultimate leader. In Hitler's own words:


"[Making peace with the church] won't stop me from stamping out Christianity in Germany, root and branch. One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both." (J. S. Conway, The Nazi Persecution of the Churches, quoted in Lutzer, pp. 113-114.)
"One cannot break the Church over one's knee. It has to be left to rot like a gangrenous limb...but the healthy youth belong to us." (Quote of Hitler in Lutzer, p. 130.)

Lutzer was the author of "Hitler's Cross."

[Lief Erikson]

Here is how the Nazis revised the Christian hymn Silent Night. You wouldn't guess it from this version, but originally Silent Night was all about the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ. Quotes below are from Wikipedia.


Silent night! Holy night!
All is calm, and all is bright
Only the Chancellor steadfast in fight
Watches o’er Germany by day and by night
Always caring for us.
Silent night! Holy night!
All is calm, and all is bright
Adolf Hitler is Germany’s wealth
Brings us greatness, favor and health
Oh give us Germans all power!


And here is an ode Hitler wrote to the pagan god Woden.


"I often go on bitter nights
To Woden's oak in the quiet glade
With dark powers to weave a union -
The moonlight showing me the runic spell
And all who are full of impudence during the day
Are made small by the magic formula!
They draw shining steel - but instead of going into combat,
They solidify into stalagmites.
Thus the wrong ones separate from the genuine ones -
I reach into a nest of words
then give to the good and fair
With my formula blessings and prosperity"

[Lief Erikson]

Words of Hitler I posted above, but want to reemphasize:

"[Making peace with the church] won't stop me from stamping out Christianity in Germany, root and branch. One is either a Christian or a German. You can't be both."

(J. S. Conway, The Nazi Persecution of the Churches, quoted in Lutzer, pp. 113-114.)

"One cannot break the Church over one's knee. It has to be left to rot like a gangrenous limb...but the healthy youth belong to us."

(Quote of Hitler in Lutzer, p. 130.)

[Lotesse]

To help Raddy & BoP and others here with proving the point that yes, most of Europe did know what was happening in the camps, and what the Final Solution was all about, I found this letter - here's part of it. Check it out!



" You state that everybody in the area had known about the existence of the camp and workers were recruited from the Polish population. It is true. Everybody had known about the camp. Not only local population, but also the whole Poland knew the truth about KL Auschwitz, as well as the Allies, Western World, World and European Jewish Congresses, International Red Cross and Vatican. Due to secret contacts between the Polish underground, Polish local population and prisoners, documents and reports on the SS crimes were collected, handed over to the Polish Resistance Movement and then sent to the West. These materials consisted of data on the mass murder of Jews and extermination of Poles, Roma and Sinti, the Soviet POWs and other national and ethnic groups. The Polish Government in Exile in London published documents, reports and organized press conferences on the crimes being committed in Auschwitz. Even in its diplomatic notes, the Polish Government in Exile informed the Allies and neutral countries about KL Auschwitz. The public was aware of what was happening at KL Auschwitz, for instance, from BBC broadcasts, newspapers and publications or press conferences of the Polish Government in Exile in London."

Here's the whole link.

http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim...big.php?id=973

[Lief Erikson]

The letter you cited is unclear on what time the information became so widespread. It mentions Russian POWs though. This indicates we're talking about a time during or after Hitler's invasion of Russia, a period that was late in the war, in 1943. Radagast already posted that much of the West knew at that time, and I'm not arguing that. However, Germany isn't likely to have believed the Allies.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I have ignored that parallel because it's just so obviously flawed. .

Thanks! I love being insulted by you.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Osama Bin Laden has given up an enormous amount for his religion. It's clear that he believes what he's saying.. .

No it is not. He is not being a "true muslim" any more than Hitler was being a "true Christian." It is NOT clear that he believes what he is saying, Lief. He could be just as amazing of a liar as any one of the great forces of evil this world has seen.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Hitler had massive public support to gain by making Christian statements, enormous political motive..

And bin Laden has massive publiuc support to gain by making Islamic statements, enormous political motive.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I find it very bizarre that you find Hitler's speeches convincing, particularly in view of his treatment of Christians and attempt to change his state so that it worshipped him.

I find it very bizarre that you believe that I am finding Hitler's speeches convincing. The speeches are there to illustrate the point that Hitler claimed Christianity, Lief; the proof is in the pudding. Toward the end of hias life, Hitler got very crazy on the methamphetamines and morphine and whatever else he took, and started saying and doing all kinds of irrational and contradictory stuff, and that's when he started spouting off about Christianity being no good - towards the end of his life and his reign. The point is, for many decades he with great success espoused and praised and identified himself with Christianity to furthur his end, and the people ate it up, and the Church either turned a blind eye or actively backed him. He was a Christian, but he did not act very "christ-like" by slaughtering tens of millions of people. That doesn't change the FACT that he claimed Christianity.

[HOBBIT]

They knew. Some even killed their jewish neighbors and took their property before the Nazis got to them.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

No it is not. He is not being a "true muslim" any more than Hitler was being a "true Christian." It is NOT clear that he believes what he is saying, Lief. He could be just as amazing of a liar as any one of the great forces of evil this world has seen.

The point is motive.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And bin Laden has massive publiuc support to gain by making Islamic statements, enormous political motive.

If he had huge public support to gain, doesn't that really weaken your argument that most Muslims are peaceful? He would have had more public support to gain by arguing for peace, if you're right on that, and he also would have had much less to lose (most of his fortune, and gaining a life on the run, hated worldwide).

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I find it very bizarre that you believe that I am finding Hitler's speeches convincing. The speeches are there to illustrate the point that Hitler claimed Christianity, Lief; the proof is in the pudding. Toward the end of hias life, Hitler got very crazy on the methamphetamines and morphine and whatever else he took, and started saying and doing all kinds of irrational and contradictory stuff. The point is, for many decades he successfully espoused Christianity to furthur his end, and people ate it up. He was a Christian, but he did not act very "christ-like" by slaughtering tens of millions of people. That doesn't change the FACT that he claimed Christianity.

Oh, I agree that he claimed to be Christian. It is also clear that he was not Christian, and that he and his Nazi Party strove to undermine Christianity.

[Mercutio]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

This fellow doesn't seem to be an overly reliable source. According to wikipedia:


Even he admits he was wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Pope

Note also this related book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myt...from_the_Nazis

I trust the Rabbi more.

About that infamous book (Hitler's Pope)...my dad would go

Anti-Catholicism histeria at its best (or thus...worst), Gwai.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

The point is motive.

If he had huge public support to gain, doesn't that really weaken your argument that most Muslims are peaceful?

Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. I never made the argument that most Muslims are peaceful. My argument is that Muslims are just as peaceful or violent as Christians. The one religion is not "better" than the other, they both have their share of religious fanatics and dangerous, evil powermongers.

His "huge public support to gain" and his "motive" is in the realm of getting money and financial freedom from Western government & business, and going about it by getting as many people on his side and calling it a jihad, or whatever, and calling the West infidels & so on. Just like Christian Hitler called the Jews pigs, Muslim bin Laden calls the U.S. and the wealthy, Christianised nations of the West infidels, etc.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I feel that consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for religious ideology and politicism is part of the bane of the world's human race.

Well, let's be complete here - consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for ANY ideology is part of the bane of the world's human race. Why limit it to religious ideology? But go ahead and limit it if you want to; IMO, atheists/agnostics are religious, anyway, so your statement applies to them, too.

Religions like to deny truth, peace, and reason. So do political parties longing for power & wealth.

So do atheists and agnostics. People from ANY group have this problem.

I have gone to great lengths over many days here to explain my position that Hitler used Christianity and christian tenets in his rise to power and his reign. If you would like the answers to your questions, Rian, kindly read all the posts I've entered to that end. He claimed to be a christian; it got him where he wanted to go. I repeat myself ad nauseum on this, and my points keep getting dodged & sidestepped by you & by Lief, too.

I guess you don't read my posts where I said I agreed with you What's up? Didn't you read my post? How much clearer can I be than saying I agree with you that Hitler claimed to be a Christian? What I DO disagree with is that he IS a Christian - IOW, merely saying he's a Christian doesn't MAKE him a Christian, just like me saying I am a Muslim doesn't MAKE me a Muslim.

Here it is AGAIN - I AGREE with you that Hitler claimed to be a Christian. I also agree that he used Christianity (although wrongly) in his rise to power and his reign. I still don't see where he used Christian tenets, though - can you provide any New Testament quotes that support any of his atrocities? Or maybe you just mean that he incorrectly used Christian tenets? Is that what you mean?

You guys also persistently keep ignoring the parallel I drew between Hitler with his Christianity and bin Laden with his Islam. You are repeatedly ignoring the point that I make, Rian, when I use Hitler & Christianity to show how religion is used by people in the world to justify the evil things they do. Whether or not Hitler quoted bible phrases is entirely and hugely beside this point.

Of course it's not "beside this point" - Christianity is DEFINED by what's in the New Testament! If someone says, "I'm a Christian and I support burning babies to death!" wouldn't it be reasonable to ask him where he got that belief and what Christianity has to do with it? Of course it would.



Yes, people use religion to justify evil things they do - people use ANY belief, including agnosticism or atheism, to justify evil things they do.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. I never made the argument that most Muslims are peaceful.

*Is highly surprised.*

Sorry. That's what everyone else I've been arguing with has been saying (and I agree with them on this point), so I made an incorrect assumption about your views. Sorry again!

Originally Posted by Lotesse

My argument is that Muslims are just as peaceful or violent as Christians. The one religion is not "better" than the other, they both have their share of religious fanatics and dangerous, evil powermongers.

Okay.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

His "huge public support to gain" and his "motive" is in the realm of getting money and financial freedom from Western government & business, and going about it by getting as many people on his side and calling it a jihad, or whatever, and calling the West infidels & so on. Just like Christian Hitler called the Jews pigs, Muslim bin Laden calls the U.S. and the wealthy, Christianised nations of the West infidels, etc.

He has lost almost all his fortune in his jihad, Lotesse, and with it has gained worldwide infamy and a life of fear, flight and constant risk of death.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Well, let's be complete here - consistently and doggedly denying truth and reason in preference for ANY ideology is part of the bane of the world's human race. Why limit it to religious ideology? But go ahead and limit it if you want to; IMO, atheists/agnostics are religious, anyway, so your statement applies to them, too.

So do atheists and agnostics. People from ANY group have this problem.

I guess you don't read my posts where I said I agreed with you What's up? Didn't you read my post? How much clearer can I be than saying I agree with you that Hitler claimed to be a Christian? What I DO disagree with is that he IS a Christian - IOW, merely saying he's a Christian doesn't MAKE him a Christian, just like me saying I am a Muslim doesn't MAKE me a Muslim.





Yes, people use religion to justify evil things they do - people use ANY belief, including agnosticism or atheism, to justify evil things they do.

1. Atheists and agnostics are not religious. To not believe in god is not religious. Atheism is not a religion, it is the belief that there is no god,
no christian god, no muslim god, no assortment of Hindu gods, or whatever. It's not a "religion," Rian!

2. When was the last time you saw a major figure of world history, past or present, gain great evil power by convincing the masses that there is no god? Seriously, name one. To not believe that there is a god in a heaven is not an ideology, not a religion, and not a church. It's just a word used to describe some of us in the world who choose not to believe in any of the religious fables & myths. For instance, I have faith and beliefs, just not in a God or gods.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

1. Atheists and agnostics are not religious. To not believe in god is not religious. Atheism is not a religion, it is the belief that there is no god,
no christian god, no muslim god, no assortment of Hindu gods, or whatever. It's not a "religion," Rian!

What I mean by "IMO, atheists/agnostics are religious" is that they, EXACTLY like "religious" people, have worldview beliefs that they base their decisions on, and which they cannot prove are right. In fact, to prove that there IS NOT a god requires one to be omniscient think about it ...

2. When was the last time you saw a major figure of world history, past or present, gain great evil power by convincing the masses that there is no god?

I don't think Hitler gained great evil power by convincing the masses that there was a god, so I don't quite get your point. But great evils can easily be supported by the belief that there is no god to tell what is right or wrong, or to even punish those who do wrong. I know of atheists who clearly stated that they did evil because they didn't believe that there was a god that would punish them for it, and that when they died, they would just turn into dust and not have any eternal soul.

Seriously, name one. To not believe that there is a god in a heaven is not an ideology, not a religion, and not a church.

It's a worldview belief, just like Christianity or other religions. It's in the EXACT same class as Christianity or other religions - it's a personal belief (hopefully based on analysis of available evidence) about what is true about the world, and it is TOTALLY unproveable, and it drives a person's beliefs about what is right and wrong.

It's just a word used to describe some of us in the world who choose not to believe in any of the religious fables & myths.

Yes, you believe in some non-religious fables and myths. It's exactly the same type of thing. From what I can tell, you believe your worldview to be true and mine to be a fable/myth - is that right? And I believe that my worldview is true and YOUR worldview is a fable/myth (and a very comfortable and flattering one, too - I can understand why people would want to cling to your particular fable/myth!)

For instance, I have faith and beliefs, just not in a God or gods.

Briefly (because we're getting off-topic) what do you have faith and beliefs in? Or maybe we should start ANOTHER thread!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Briefly (because we're getting off-topic) what do you have faith and beliefs in? Or maybe we should start ANOTHER thread!

No, there already is a Religious Knowledge thread.

[Rían]

I think discussing Lotesse's beliefs would probably fall in the "Why you believe what you believe" thread instead of the "Religious Knowledge" thread since she doesn't consider her beliefs to be religious.

Not that I do, either - but I DO consider them to be the same type of beliefs as mine - i.e., worldview beliefs.

[Spock]

An Excellent book which shed light on much of what everyone here is saying or rather why they are saying what they are saying, when quoting Herr Hitler is:
Language Of The Third Reich: Lti, Lingua Tertii Imperii : A Philologist's Notebook (Continuum Studies in the Third Reich) (Paperback)
by Victor Klemperer, Martin Brady

It is most enlightening if you're interested in liguistic tactics.