Why you believe what you believe II

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'd rather discuss my views v. yours as opposed to interjecting third parties and required reading

No doubt you realize that I am elucidating my views by that reference (which you had earlier indicated an interest in, IIRC) not appealing to authority.

But all of this life is "homework" as well as "required reading" . Rather like reading a subject in the British system, at that! Then there's that examination at the end, too !

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

No doubt you realize that I am elucidating my views by that reference (which you had earlier indicated an interest in, IIRC) not appealing to authority.

But all of this life is "homework" as well as "required reading" . Rather like reading a subject in the British system, at that! Then there's that examination at the end, too !

i appreciate it and enjoy the references... just need to find the time... but i will be sure to slip a note up my sleeve for that final exam

[Lizra]

Once again....Bj, your hotseat time was very insightful! You were very polite to the constant christian carping. Thank-you! ...Could god's cheerleaders keep their rah rahs for their hot seat dissertations? It's really boring to read the same thing over and over and over. I suppose I should just quit reading this thread though...what did I expect!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

god's cheerleaders! i like that, lizra

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Once again....Bj, your hotseat time was very insightful!

thanks lizra

[inked]

brownjenkins,

It has been interesting and insightful, but I rather suspect you get the endurance record for being on the hot seat the longest. An equal amount of time on a block of ice might be of some relief .


lizra,

I will tell you what is the liberal answer to objections by non-liberals to content on TV or Radio: change the channel, Domestic Swing Babe: nobody's forcing you to read this thread!


LCoU,

I agree with your assessment of lizra's term "god's cheerleaders" except I would capitalize it thusly - God's cheerleaders. And would suggest the opposite viewpoint has "AA cheerleaders" (Agnostic/Atheist cheerleaders or
Atheist/Agnostic cheerleaders as you prefer or alphabetize) !

[Lizra]

yes..ho hum...I really am tired of reading about all things christian . Adios!

[Rían]

And now I'll finish responding to the second part of post 1230:

Originally Posted by brownie

which gets back to why i believe what i believe... from a few posts back:

this is the key issue for me... we can discuss the ultimately unanswerable questions of god's existance, the source of morality, what is an isn't a "basic absolute" till the end of time... and we may very well do that

but at the heart there are three kinds of "belief systems":

1) those that base their beliefs in whole or in part on some form of religious text, believing in a god, of course

2) those that believe there is a god, but that no human can know the thoughts and intentions of this god and "religious texts" are no more than the philosophies of humanity (i.e. deists)

3) those who do not believe there is a god, or highly doubt it

in "the real world" 2) and 3) are the same... they can argue the unanswerables that i listed above, but day to day it is there own judgement, along with the consensus of the society they live in that determines the "morality" they live by... and it changes over time... though certainly some basics have remained nearly the same for as long as we know

as such, i could easily agree with 99% of any that fall into those two categories... my problem is with 1)... i can't buy the idea, which you don't seem to buy either, that any written text has it ALL "RIGHT" (and you know what i mean by "right"... or see beginning of this post... i am bound by the limitations of human language )

so, in essence, there are two kinds of belief systems (belief in god aside, because whether or not you believe in god is not as relavent as how you apply that belief to the real world)

those who live by their own judgement and those who live by religious texts in whole or in part... and since most, if not all religions basically imply that "if you believe in me, you must believe in whole"... i do not believe in them... and instead pick and chose what makes sense to me

As far as me, you don't have it quite right ... you said, "i can't buy the idea, which you don't seem to buy either, that any written text has it ALL "RIGHT" (and you know what i mean by "right"... or see beginning of this post... i am bound by the limitations of human language )". What I do believe is that there IS a true state of the universe, and I consider it a POSSIBILITY that a written text COULD have it ALL right, and my judgement, after lots of thought and observation, is that the Bible has it ALL right.

Why don't you think it's possible that a particular written text has it "ALL 'RIGHT' "? I would certainly think it's at least a possibility. Probability is another thing; you need to use your own judgement. It seems to me that if there IS a God that's big enough to make the universe, that it is not unreasonable to expect that He could manage to put a book together with truth in it. Apparently you don't believe that IF He existed He could manage to put together a book filled with truth. Why?

You said there were two belief systems - "those who live by their own judgement and those who live by religious texts in whole or in part". In your view, I "live by religious texts". Yet I also tell you that I use my own judgement every day. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

You talk about things like marriage changing over time. Yet why would it have to? Lots of things don't change over time, such as the female and male human body. Why would marriage have to necessarily change over time? I have no problem with, for example, the concept of "modesty" looking different over time and in different cultures. Yet the concept of "modesty", which is really just another name for consideration of others, does not change. I really think you're confusing outward clothing with inner person - I can change clothes, but my person is the same.

Anyway, Christianity isn't only about ethics; it's about sin and justice and mercy and love and strength and beauty and truth. And since you don't really feel you've done much wrong, I can see how you don't feel the need for justice and someone to pay the penalty of your sins for you. IIRC, it was Kant who thought because of justice, there must be a God. Humans have such a strong sense of justice - do you think it's right that people were hurt thru actions of yours and there is no justice for them?

Anyway, you don't need to answer any of this I'm sure you're ready to leave now! Thanks again for your patience, and your thoughtfulness, and your consideration of everyone's questions!! You've been very kind and patient and I think have really thought about people's questions. I still have logical problems with your worldview, but apparently I can't point them out well enough, because you don't see them. But thanks for considering what I had to say

[Rían]

an as i said before... i have no problem borrowing from other sources... in one of my very early posts at the 'moot i defined myself as an "eclectic atheist"... these days i'd change that to "eclectic agnostic atheist"

you have converted me a little bit rÃ*an

And thank you for telling me this! That is quite an honor that you would consider what I've had to say. And I'm very glad that you realize that I think about what YOU have to say, too.

can you respect that i've achieved that pov through my own vaild reasoning, whether or not you agree with my reasons?

Yes, I absolutely can, and I've said this before

I never really got to my second reason why I disagree with your worldview, but it's basically the heart (the head being the first reason). I find such a strong call of beauty and justice in my heart that I find it hard to believe that there is no god involved. IT seems to me that if atheism is true, that I would NOT feel the way I do, esp. about people. I find people to be such amazing things! so beautiful and fun and interesting and diverse and ... oh, just amazing! that murder is MORE than just "oh, we don't like murder because it's bad for society to murder, that's all." To me, murder is totally disgusting and wrong because it harms a PERSON. Hang "society"! Society is not a thing; it's a group of PEOPLE! And its preservation is only important because it's made up of wonderful PEOPLE! And love is not only some urge to reproduce; it's sheer, wonderful admiration of a PERSON!

If you don't see these things - if murder is only wrong because of what society thinks and love is only the urge to reproduce - then I don't blame you for holding your particular worldview - your worldview makes perfect sense if that's what you see. But I have to go with what I see - and I see more - so I have to find a worldview that makes sense of what I actually SEE and FEEL and OBSERVE, just as you do.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

You were very polite to the constant christian carping.

I don't understand your anger towards Christians

How is talk by Christians "carping" and talk by atheists/agnostics NOT "carping"? Really, Lizra, you're quite inconsistent.

...Could god's cheerleaders keep their rah rahs for their hot seat dissertations?

Why? Why should atheists and agnostics get to cheerlead for their views, and not Christians? Seems pretty intolerant to me ...

I think people should support whatever worldview they think is right! And if they can't, it's probably because they haven't put much thought into it, which I don't think is a good thing ...

It's really boring to read the same thing over and over and over. I suppose I should just quit reading this thread though...what did I expect!

Yes, I suggest leaving the thread if you're bored

And as thread starter, I remind everyone! - no insults, please Good, vigorous, fun, all-out discussion, but keep it kind and considerate

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Why don't you think it's possible that a particular written text has it "ALL 'RIGHT' "? I would certainly think it's at least a possibility. Probability is another thing; you need to use your own judgement. It seems to me that if there IS a God that's big enough to make the universe, that it is not unreasonable to expect that He could manage to put a book together with truth in it. Apparently you don't believe that IF He existed He could manage to put together a book filled with truth. Why?

i'm sure he could do whatever he liked, but i think he would have put something out a bit less haphazad and open to interpretation as the bible... and why not a revised edition ever millenium or so? it certainly sells well enough

You said there were two belief systems - "those who live by their own judgement and those who live by religious texts in whole or in part". In your view, I "live by religious texts". Yet I also tell you that I use my own judgement every day. The two are NOT mutually exclusive.

if one uses the bible as a guideline, yet is willing to put it aside for their own judgement as necessary... i'd say that's cool... that's why i often ask for non-scriptual examples in other threads... i'm curious to see if there are any

You talk about things like marriage changing over time. Yet why would it have to? Lots of things don't change over time, such as the female and male human body. Why would marriage have to necessarily change over time? I have no problem with, for example, the concept of "modesty" looking different over time and in different cultures. Yet the concept of "modesty", which is really just another name for consideration of others, does not change. I really think you're confusing outward clothing with inner person - I can change clothes, but my person is the same.

marriage is a human concept... we both invented it an defined it... i don't think even inked would go so far as to claim marriage is one of those "absolutes" that exists outside human experience and my guess is that sexual relations between humans, both hetero and homo, existed looooong before the idea of marriage did... long before language did, for that matter

Anyway, Christianity isn't only about ethics; it's about sin and justice and mercy and love and strength and beauty and truth. And since you don't really feel you've done much wrong, I can see how you don't feel the need for justice and someone to pay the penalty of your sins for you. IIRC, it was Kant who thought because of justice, there must be a God. Humans have such a strong sense of justice - do you think it's right that people were hurt thru actions of yours and there is no justice for them?

i've never been one who was terribly hung up on the "justice" thing... i tend to be more practical... put him in jail for life so he can never kill again... not necessarily as some kind of punishment... but i also know that most people in this world seem to have a desire not just to stop wrongs, but to punish those who commit them... justice in retribution

i'm not sure whether "justice" is a positive idea or not as far as human relations go, but it is something we must all deal with

But thanks for considering what I had to say

i always do

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If you don't see these things - if murder is only wrong because of what society thinks and love is only the urge to reproduce - then I don't blame you for holding your particular worldview - your worldview makes perfect sense if that's what you see. But I have to go with what I see - and I see more - so I have to find a worldview that makes sense of what I actually SEE and FEEL and OBSERVE, just as you do.

i do see these things... we discuss concepts and philosophy here, why we are what we are... but "reality" is much more concrete than concepts... the totality of kant's writings and all the passages of the bible pale in comparision to truely experiencing the world around us, from beauty, to love, to happiness, to anger... as i said, "we give our own meaning to life"... we have these senses and emotions within us, and we can't help but appreciate them... it does not need to come from without

whether you grew up a hindu, muslim, or in a fairly unreligious family like my own, you can be just as caring an appreciative of the world around you... i think this is because it comes from inside... not from a belief system

[Rían]

** warning to Lizra - I'm going to mention God * *

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'm sure he could do whatever he liked, but i think he would have put something out a bit less haphazad and open to interpretation as the bible... and why not a revised edition ever millenium or so? it certainly sells well enough

You know, I think it's so cool that the Bible is not cut and dry - it's just filled with great stories (and there really IS nothing new! You should see some of the things that happen!) I think God wants us to think - and I think the format of the Bible promotes this.

if one uses the bible as a guideline, yet is willing to put it aside for their own judgement as necessary... i'd say that's cool...

But that's because in your judgement, you don't believe it is wholly truthful. It's MY judgement that it IS wholly truthful, so why would I put it aside?

that's why i often ask for non-scriptual examples in other threads... i'm curious to see if there are any

I don't quite understand this ...

marriage is a human concept... we both invented it an defined it... i don't think even inked would go so far as to claim marriage is one of those "absolutes" that exists outside human experience and my guess is that sexual relations between humans, both hetero and homo, existed looooong before the idea of marriage did... long before language did, for that matter

Since there is no proof that humans invented and defined marriage, this is an opinion/belief of yours, not a fact. Here's my opinion/belief: marriage is a concept invented by God, just like sex! It is instituted right in Genesis with Adam and Eve, and confirmed in both Old Testament and New Testament, and in addition to being really fun, is a picture used over and over again of God's love for His people! God's not a prude! He invented the things that allow us to reach the, um, (PG-13) heights we do

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i do see these things...

I tried to get you to talk about them, but you kept putting me off with jokes, so I thought you didn't see them.

... i think this is because it comes from inside... not from a belief system

I think it comes from inside, too - but I think God made our insides And we're made in the image of God - and He experiences ALL those things - "beauty, to love, to happiness, to anger".

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Since there is no proof that humans invented and defined marriage, this is an opinion/belief of yours, not a fact. Here's my opinion/belief: marriage is a concept invented by God, just like sex! It is instituted right in Genesis with Adam and Eve, and confirmed in both Old Testament and New Testament, and in addition to being really fun, is a picture used over and over again of God's love for His people! God's not a prude! He invented the things that allow us to reach the, um, (PG-13) heights we do

ok... i take it all back... i'm right and you're nuts! (kidding of 'course)

we've still got tolkien

[Rían]

Yep

And still a lot in common, too

[jellyfishannah]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

whether you grew up a hindu, muslim, or in a fairly unreligious family like my own, you can be just as caring an appreciative of the world around you... i think this is because it comes from inside... not from a belief system

You're right, of course. And God isn't a belief system.

EDIT: oops...Rian already said almost the same things.

[jellyfishannah]

I find it funny that people who have arguments againsts Christians always argue against the Bible. Like it's ridiculous and restricting and sexist.A lot of the Bible is just history. I wonder if they've even read it?

Another thing, If Love is only urge to reproduce then what is the love I have for family and friends??? It's more than admiration. And it certainly is NOT the urge to reproduce.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Rian

I think people should support whatever worldview they think is right! And if they can't, it's probably because they haven't put much thought into it, which I don't think is a good thing ...

Haven't you heard? It's quite popular to be "open-minded". Though lots of people only mean to be open-minded for the sake being open-minded. Seeking for the sake of seeking instead of for the finding. Which really isn't seeking, anyway. They just don't want to step on people's toes. (Christian's toes you may step on, though)

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jellyfishannah

You're right, of course. And God isn't a belief system.

EDIT: oops...Rian already said almost the same things.

if you're a believer it isn't... if you're not

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jellyfishannah

I find it funny that people who have arguments againsts Christians always argue against the Bible. Like it's ridiculous and restricting and sexist.A lot of the Bible is just history. I wonder if they've even read it?

i have, only once in complete... i don't on a regular basis

Another thing, If Love is only urge to reproduce then what is the love I have for family and friends??? It's more than admiration. And it certainly is NOT the urge to reproduce.

sometimes rÃ*an likes to take the stuff i say and infer black and whites... i.e. it's only the urge to reproduce... it's far from that... i won't ask you to read thirty pages but...

it's about experiencing life together, spending time with other people and getting to know them... depending on them and being depended on... and with some of the close ones maybe a bit of reproducing

you don't just meet someone and suddenly love them... at least not the type of love i think you are talking about... it's something that grows and changes over time... and i think it has everything to do with the here and now and very little to do with something from the outside (or some deific force from the inside)

it's why i am somewhat leary of religions that frown on things like living together, and sometimes even sleeping together before making a lifetime commitment like marriage... i think they are forcing people to make a less-than-fully-informed choice... sure, some get lucky and some "work it out"... but an awful lot do not

Haven't you heard? It's quite popular to be "open-minded". Though lots of people only mean to be open-minded for the sake being open-minded. Seeking for the sake of seeking instead of for the finding. Which really isn't seeking, anyway. They just don't want to step on people's toes. (Christian's toes you may step on, though)

i agree... for myself, i enjoy the conversation... i refrain from stepping on toes unless i know the person has some nice thick boots on

as i said earlier, while rÃ*an and i have come about our morals by a sometimes radically different path... they are not terribly far apart... and while i can't quite connect the dots on her end, and she can not on mine... i have to accept that her way does work more or less as well as mine

so while i'll continue to argue the "more or less"... i'm not quite as inclined as i once was to just say "throw it out"