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06-28-2004, 08:23 PM | #81 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And another thing about the use of the word "choice" - the aborted baby sure didn't have any choice in the matter the "pro-choice" people take away that choice from him/her ...
I had an amnio after a special ultrasound determined that my second son had some fairly significant birth defects. There were several possible reasons why it could have happened, and we wanted to know more, because we would have had to have some specialists present at birth if it was one of the options. My doctor had done thousands of amnios, and had NEVER lost a baby, so we thought it was a good choice. I had several more amnios while I was in the hospital with pre-term labor. They were trying to stop the labor until the baby's lungs were mature enough to let him breathe on his own. You can determine this by examining the amniotic fluid for the presence of surfactant. I was in the hospital for a month, on heavy-duty labor-supressing drugs, and on the second or third amnio in the hospital, they detected surfactant, so I delivered him the next morning, and his lungs were just fine. My own doctor did them; I wouldn't have allowed another doctor to do them unless I was happy with his/her "record" with the procedure. Personally, because I would not have an abortion, I wouldn't get an amnio to determine whether or not to abort; but for medical reasons like the ones that happened to me, I think it's a choice that is fine to make. I also had an amnio when I was pregnant with my third child, because I really appreciated knowing about my son's birth defects early on, and wanted to see if this baby was fine (altho I wouldn't have aborted if it wasn't). It was the same doctor, so I felt comfortable with doing it. Some people might object to this, but my husband and I felt it was the right decision, so we did it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-28-2004, 10:59 PM | #82 | |
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06-29-2004, 06:38 AM | #83 |
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(Rian, I wouldn’t want to cast aspersions on your doctor, but that simply cannot literally be the case if s/he has any substantial experience in obstetrics. People lose babies for all sorts of reasons (most of them unknown) all the time. Around 20% of all conceptions spontaneously abort.)
So, amniocentesis gives the parents definitive information, yet subjects the foetus to risk of death. Are we justified in subjecting a “child” to this risk in order to make our own lives easier? I would say yes, because I don’t classify the foetus as a child; in common with others’ experiences, my wife and I wanted to remove the uncertainty surrounding a potential diagnosis to be able to plan ahead. I posed the question because I think I would have a different view if I thought of foetuses and babies as equivalent. (I certainly struggled with the morality of the question at the time when we had to decide whether or not to have the test, and in future, I may prefer to have no tests at all.) At the same time, I can accept that there is a crucial difference (of intent) between carrying out a procedure intended to end a foetus’s life and one intended to gather information which carries a risk of death. Can pro-lifers accept that there is a crucial difference between a foetus and an unborn child? Would they accept a screening test on their newborn baby which subjected him or her to a 1% chance of dying but had no therapeutic benefit? I’m not condemning anyone here; I am just challenging views in a genuine spirit of enquiry. I feel that there is a contradiction between beliefs and behaviour on this one. And yes, it’s all about definitions! |
06-29-2004, 09:04 AM | #84 | |
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06-29-2004, 02:51 PM | #85 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Of course he could have been lying - you never know ... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-29-2004 at 02:53 PM. |
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06-29-2004, 02:56 PM | #86 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-29-2004, 03:06 PM | #87 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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A general comment: (and I say this cautiously, but I think it needs to be said) I also think that there is a lot of self-deception going on with pro-choice people. IOW, they're going against what their heart is telling them on the issue of if it's a baby or just a mass of tissue without value. There's no moral problem with removing, say, a cyst; there IS a moral issue with killing a child. And if you don't want a child, or the trouble of going thru a pregnancy, then if you can view the fetus as just a cyst, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with just removing a cyst, is there? And "choice" is a good thing, so wording it that way makes it seem like those against you are against choice in general, and that your position does NOT involve a baby in any way.
I think there are many pro-choicers that truly believe that the fetus is NOT human; but I also think that there are many that DO, yet "talk themselves out of it". Just one example on this thought - why is killing a pregnant woman considered a double murder in many places, if the fetus is not human? It seems to boil down to if you WANT the baby, then it's a baby; if you DON'T want it, it's NOT a baby. This should be ringing alarm bells, IMO ... And no, I have not personally had an abortion; but I know people that HAVE. One is a v. close relative (and I don't shun her by any means - don't even THINK that! Why should I? We're v. close.) I can totally understand the temptation towards abortion - so quick, and relatively easy, and then the "problem" is gone ... and no one needs to know. A lot of crisis pregnancy centers (places where women can go to get free pregnancy tests, and talk about other options besides abortion, and talk to people just about things in general, and get help with clothing and other supplies, etc. - run by pro-life people) are getting ultrasound machines, and find that when a pregnant woman who is leaning towards abortion gets a look at an ultrasound picture of the baby in her womb, she changes her mind and chooses to NOT abort. The general feeling is "that's a BABY in there!" I've touched on some rather delicate areas - but as Gaffer said, in the spirit of enquiry, and NOT condemnation. I'd like to hear some opinions on these things, and feel free to say I'm deceiving myself, too, if you truly think that, and can say it with respect and consideration and back it up.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-29-2004 at 06:14 PM. |
06-29-2004, 03:52 PM | #88 | |
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I've been having this debate with my fellow NAGTYs and two things in particular have struck. The first was that a study (sorry, I can't give details) suggested that those who went through abortion to terminate pregnancy after rape suffered twice the mental anguish as those who actually gave birth. This suggests that even to those who had to abort a foetus which came to them in a detestable manner feel a connection with something which is sufficiently deep to regret abortion. However due to the lack of provinance and the fact it was only one study the findings were thrown out of discussion. The other, and again I cannot verify if this is the truth, was the suggestion that some Roman Catholics perform funeral rites for aborted feotuses, but not for miscarried children. This was news to me, and my initial reaction was revulsion (to the idea of preforming rites for something which, and I really catch myself out here, never lived... properly). Was this repulsion just the effect of society on me, or some deep belief that the feotus did not deserve the same treatement as humans?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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06-30-2004, 04:05 AM | #89 | ||
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Lots of stuff to discuss here and not enough time at the moment, but here's a quick reply.
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If something happened now and we lost the baby, it would be like losing a child. Not the same as losing a child, but similar. The contradiction I was referring to was how we (regardless of our pro-life or -choice views) seem to be prepared to accept a 1% risk of death for our unborn child (from an amniocentesis, which has no therapeutic benefit), yet wouldn't accept that same risk if the child was born. Last edited by The Gaffer : 06-30-2004 at 04:08 AM. |
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06-30-2004, 08:14 AM | #90 | |
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It might be just a rumour, but I think I've heard it before - perhaps it's one of those rumours which everyone comes to believe in.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-30-2004, 10:10 AM | #91 | |
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A couple other matters that have been touched on: People will get abortions anyway: Now, how do we make our laws? Do we make them from objective moral standards? Or are they determined by people's behavior? If the latter, we could make the same statement about drug use (which some might agree with), but also infanticide, child abuse, euthenasia, assisted suicide, theft, murder, extortion, fraud, arson, etc, etc. After all, people do all those things anyway, right? Heck - why do we need ANY laws? People will do what they will do anyway! A Women's Issue: Another interesting thing... which I especially thought of when Hillary Clinton was pushing abortion rights in Third World countries some years ago. What happens when Elective Abortion becomes Selective Abortion? Here in America, we abort 1,400,000 babies every year (around 30% of pregnancies ). But anybody ever hear of a place called China? Do you know about their 'One Family, One Child' policy? They have a younger population which is overwhelmingly male. Why is this? Each family is only permitted to have one child - and, as in many cultures, sons are highly treasured. Couples are frequently known to abort upon discovering that the pre-born baby is a girl(!). Oh - other little girls have unusually high rates of 'accidents' (infanticide is rampant) or get abandoned and placed in orphanages (which has spurred a lucrative business for the Chinese government - adopting out young Chinese girls to caring American or other western families for exhorbitant fees - the rates (ED: as in "costs" or "price") for this have just soared). So - what do you folks think about people having an abortion because they wanted a son and a daughter is in the oven? Or vice-versa? Or... Chrys, what's that spinal condition you have? What would you think of expectant parents getting an abortion upon finding their child had that condition? Me... I would think it was wrong! In China it's so bad that the government STRONGLY encourages abortions to expectant mothers who already have a child (in some cases practically force them to - or even force them in actuality). (EDIT: I don't think anyone even knows how many abortions are performed in China each year) So... is it advancing the rights of women worldwide when couples choose to abort a young daughter in hopes of later gaining a son? Think about it. Wonder if it happens here in the US of A too? One 'choice' issue we haven't mentioned either - which is a major contributor to abortion: Upon finding out his girlfriend / wife is pregnant, how many boyfriends / husbands say; "It's me or the baby - your choice!" Is THAT the kind of 'choice' we want? That's reality though folks - and it's a story I hear all the time.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 06-30-2004 at 01:12 PM. |
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06-30-2004, 01:31 PM | #92 | |
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It's widely accepted that amniocentesis carries that extra risk, though sometimes you see a lower figure than 1% quoted. Do you think amniocentesis is acceptable, Val? (Bearing in mind that it only gives you information, it doesn't have any therapeutic benefit) Clearly, the "it's OK because people do it" argument is ridiculous on its own. However what I think this argument is saying is really "it's OK because most people think it's OK". However, having defined it as OK up to a certain point in development, I agree that it's pretty difficult to impose some sort of moral constraint on the reasons that are justifiable. One could argue that "population control" is a better justification than, say, wanting a boy or sparing the family's embarrassment. Either way, it makes no difference to the foetus. |
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06-30-2004, 01:44 PM | #93 | |
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It's truly hard for me to say. From Rian's testimonial (a doctor having done thousands without a miscarriage resulting) - I wonder if technique is a factor... ie, a medical professional doing it properly greatly decreases any risk to practically nil. Of course, he could be beating the odds... wonder how large the sample was for the study you quote... and it IS interesting that the other risk factors were taken into account. Say - what was the statistical 'plus-or-minus' from that study... wasn't 1% by any chance, was it?
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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06-30-2004, 03:33 PM | #94 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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06-30-2004, 03:36 PM | #95 | |
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I don't understand your question about a dog though... nor do I consider ANY dog the equal of a person.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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06-30-2004, 04:21 PM | #96 | |
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i would assume that while killing a human is a sin... killing anything else, while it might be cruel, is not is that basically right?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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06-30-2004, 04:39 PM | #97 | |
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Yes - that would be essentially correct - though some may dicker about such issues as capital punishment and killing in war... but if you say 'murder', there would be general agreement.
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06-30-2004, 05:26 PM | #98 | ||
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IIRC, it's not known whether technique or skill has anything to do with it. In a systematic review of published research, it would be standard practice to examine the effects of different carers or settings, as well as things like what equipment was used, etc., which you'd expect to reveal whether it's just a few cack-handed individuals that skew the data. I'm sure that doctors would like us to believe that it's possible to be infallible, but as far as I know, the Pope doesn't do obstetrics On a related issue, I'm surprised to come across two parents who were not aware of the risks of amniocentesis. In your own case, obviously the issue didn't come up, but it's pretty widely known about here and it's a legal requirement to inform patients of it. I did wonder if the NHS is just crap at it (always a possibility), but saw it mentioned on a US HMO site recently too. Like I said, if a pregnancy did terminate after an amnio, it would be impossible to say whether or not it would have happened anyway. Last edited by The Gaffer : 06-30-2004 at 05:34 PM. |
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06-30-2004, 07:36 PM | #99 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Gaffer - it's quite possible my wife would know if there's widespread warning that amnio's are not considered 100% safe. I'll ask her what she knows.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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07-01-2004, 01:15 AM | #100 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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1% is the number I heard on amnios, too, altho I did think that the miscarriages occurred fairly soon after the procedure.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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