08-24-2004, 06:29 AM | #81 | |
Elf Lord
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And one last contribution for now, then I'll shut up.
Last year, 3 million people died of AIDS worldwide, 14 million children were orphaned and 5 million were newly infected with HIV. I'd recommend that people read the keynote statement from the AIDS conference in Bangkok in July: UNFPA Statement Note the emphasis that sex education which promotes condom use also incorporates education that promotes abstinence from sexual activity. It also includes tackling gender discrimination and violence against women. We need a fully integrated approach if we are to have any chance of stemming this terrible suffering. There's also a good review piece by George Monbiot in The Guardian. If you can stomach the leftist spin early on, there are some interesting facts further on down. Like, for example, countries where they have no interest in abstinence-only education having the lowest rates of teenage pregnancy. Here's choice quote: Quote:
There's not enough evidence here to be categorical, but it's not good news for educational programmes in general and it's looking particularly grim for abstinence-only. Last edited by The Gaffer : 08-24-2004 at 07:09 AM. |
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08-24-2004, 08:45 AM | #82 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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thanks for taking the time to look up the stuff i was to lazy to gaffer... and many good points too
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08-24-2004, 10:12 AM | #83 |
Elf Lord
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No bother. Ah, the joys of "working at home"
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08-24-2004, 11:17 AM | #84 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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That said about the priest example though, I will nevertheless agree with you that abstinence education will not always work. I'd have to be an extremely idealistic individual to believe that. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-24-2004 at 03:13 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 11:29 AM | #85 | |
Elf Lord
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Let's say our government became highly religious. Religious people gained office everywhere. Health care became extremely religious. The religious people decide that people making votes based upon secular views are to be excluded from the voting process. Atheists and Agnostics are having their votes carefully observed to see whether they're based upon secular or religious viewpoints. People that aren't religious don't have any say in health care. Their votes are thrown out because they're making them from non-religious standpoints. This clearly isn't right. So why should the reverse be fair? Religious people being excluded from having an impact upon health care because they're religious?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2004, 12:00 PM | #86 |
Elf Lord
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I read the articles from "The Guardian" and the AIDS one that you posted, Gaffer. Quite interesting material, it is. I feel a little tentative about accepting George Monbiot's words though. That's largely because Republicans and Democrats frequently try to tear down each others' nominees in favor of getting votes. The apparently compelling information from the Swiftvets doesn't seem to be doing too well, on a closer inspection. Hmm. When it gets into politics, referring particularly to President Bush, I tend to be somewhat more cautious.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-24-2004 at 12:02 PM. |
08-24-2004, 12:39 PM | #87 |
Elf Lord
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LE, I agree about the priests, the lack of certainty in any approach, and would reiterate that there are no guarantees in this life generally!
Condom values? Using condoms can protect you from STDs and prevent unwanted pregnancy. IMO there are associated values around honesty, openness, discussion with your partner and respect for his/her values. Sure, Monbiot is a leftie and proud of it. At least he's fairly honest. As far as I can tell, though, he has got his facts straight, including that the CDC programmes he referred to were dropped under pressure from the executive. You have to decide for yourself whether that had anything to do with the executive wanting to suppress information that might reflect badly on its favoured policy. As far as I can tell, no-one is openly suggesting that we organise health care along religious lines, nor that we discount certain views because they're made for this reason or that. What I do argue for is that policy should be informed by the best available evidence about what works and what doesn't. By all means argue for it if you believe in it, and see how many people you get on side. At least, again, you'll be being honest and open about it, which is more than can be said for the current incumbent of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. But in health care, there is often a tension between what's good from the individual's perspective and what's good from the population's. Witness the furore surrounding MMR vaccination recently. (Basically, there was a totally unfounded suggestion that the MMR vaccine caused autism, which got into the media and resulted in some areas of the UK losing its "herd immunity". As a result, children are getting measles again) So, who should put forward policy on these things? Health professionals or theologians? How about pressure groups with a particular axe to grind? There's also the question of whether it's right for any state to promote views that are based on any particular religious denomination. |
08-24-2004, 03:55 PM | #88 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Whoops. In an earlier post I said, "I will nevertheless agree with you that abstinence education will always work. I'd have to be an extremely idealistic individual to believe that." What I meant was, "I will nevertheless agree with you that abstinence education will not always work. I'd have to be an extremely idealistic individual to believe that."
I must have been rather tired when I was writing that post. Quote:
You make an accurate point that the abstinence-only teachings completely miss important portions of discussion (safe-sex). Most places where abstinence-only is taught don't allow safe-sex to be discussed, unless it's where its shortcomings are criticized. Quote:
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People who advance in the medical field, those who put forth policies, are health professionals. Whether they're religious or not. What decisions they make can be influenced by religious beliefs or by the lack of them. These are professionals using their professional judgment. That judgment shouldn't have to be scrutinized and judged based upon the individuals' connection with religion. At least I don't think it should. I'm not very knowledgable in this area. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2004, 04:03 PM | #89 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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Although I WILL comment briefly on your conclusion here: Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-24-2004 at 04:07 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 04:59 PM | #90 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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To me, this is a VERY important issue. I hear so often from people that are "non-religious" that "religious" people should somehow not be able to vote on issues. Well, I say that until the "non-religious" people can show me convincing proof that God does NOT exist, then THEIR beliefs are on par with mine, and we should BOTH be able to vote based on what we think is right. And let me clear something up - the way I vote on issues that affect society does NOT always reflect what I think is right for ME, PERSONALLY. For example, altho I think that sex outside of marriage is very hurtful to everyone involved, I would NOT vote for a LAW that penalizes sex outside of marriage, mainly because I don't think it's enforceable, and I think it is counterproductive. I think there are more important things to concentrate on in our legal code.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-24-2004 at 05:01 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 05:11 PM | #91 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What tends to get overlooked here is that the VAST majority of Americans consider themselves Christians. It amazes me when "non-religious" people have the gall to actually suggest that this vast majority of Americans should meekly surrender their right to vote just because a minority has an opinion that they should not vote if the issue has any "religious" tinges, in their opinion. Like somehow a "non-religious" person is more right than a "religious" person, when both base their opinions upon beliefs? The first time someone floated that idea and someone bought it ... they must have stayed up the whole night laughing at how easily people rolled over. Well, I don't intend to roll over and buy that line, since I think it is both illogical and hypocritical, and against what our country was founded for. As I said in the previous post, I say that until the "non-religious" people can show me convincing proof that God does NOT exist, then THEIR beliefs are on par with mine, and we should BOTH be able to vote based on what we think is right. And if someone sincerely believes in Islam, and wants women to wear veils, then all power to them to get the issue on the ballot and vote according to their beliefs. It's a free country. And people are free to leave if they don't like what the majority of citizens like. Really, it amazes me how illiberal the liberals are. Their opinion seems to be "If you disagree with me, especially on issues that I consider to be "religious", then don't vote!" I would be considered a conservative, and yet I say "If you disagree with me, then go ahead and lobby for your position, and vote your position!" And I also repeat that I vote on society issues based on what I think is right for SOCIETY, not necessarily for ME.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-24-2004 at 05:15 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 05:17 PM | #92 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2004, 05:20 PM | #93 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-24-2004 at 05:23 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 05:31 PM | #94 |
The Blobbit
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I find it concerning that at no point in my sex education was there a link between having sex and having children. Sex is not portrayed as a good thing to have when you want children. It was something you will have. But you just have to make sure that you don't 'get pregnant'. That's the worst thing! I don't know what it is, but it's bad and I shouldn't do it.
Perhaps a connection between sex and its natural function in sex ed classes and maybe there will be fewer pregnacies.
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
08-24-2004, 05:47 PM | #95 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-24-2004, 06:07 PM | #96 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-24-2004, 06:52 PM | #97 | |||||
Elf Lord
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However, I don't see how I can possibly make you see that. Doubtless I will soon stop arguing it, as a consequence. In all some of my recent posts I don't feel that I'm making any progress. You restate the same points again and again, and so do I. Nothing productive is being done, and it's rather sad. One of us just can't see how his arguments fail, so we probably would do well to both quit. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-24-2004 at 06:56 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 06:57 PM | #98 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2004, 07:17 PM | #99 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And if you're willing to agree to that, then I expect and hope to see you lobbying to remove ALL laws that impose restrictions on other people, including laws about murder and theft. Then you'll come back and point out that you think that only laws that stop people from hurting others should be imposed. And I'll point out that I totally agree with you, and that our only difference is that based on our worldviews, we don't agree on what hurts people. So I think this discussion is at an end. And I'd like to point out that I seem to be the most tolerant one here, because I would say that if you sincerely think it's best for society to make a law that says it's illegal for me to go to church, then I would hope that you lobby for that law and vote for it. Just like you support laws against murder because you sincerely think it's harmful. And I would also like to point out that YOU are the one making a distinction between one group of my beliefs and another. I do NOT make that distinction, and I reject your attempt to make it for me. ALL of my beliefs are based on my worldview. ALL of your beliefs are based on yours. I don't accept your distinction. Or I will accept it, and insist that you let ME characterize YOUR beliefs as all being religious, too, because IMO, they are. But I imagine you'll say I'm wrong, which really mystifies me, because you seem to be saying you can have an opinion and I can't. Quote:
I'm the one that's fair and consistent. I say let EVERY person in this country vote for what they think is right for society. Quote:
What's your answer to that one? Quote:
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Again, it seems that I'm the tolerant and consistent one here. I am willing to accept that you have a different worldview than I do. And I'm gracious enough to assume that you have put some thought into your worldview. I certainly have put a lot of thought into mine. And I am openminded enough to see that according to your worldview BELIEFS, your position makes sense. But you don't seem to be able to do this with me. Why not? Cannot you, the agnostic, grant that my worldview might be the correct one? It's certainly not a minority worldview; MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people think it the correct one. Why can't you, the agnostic, encourage someone of different beliefs to vote according to what they believe is harmful or good for society? You certainly vote that way.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-24-2004 at 07:19 PM. |
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08-24-2004, 07:56 PM | #100 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I'm jealous! I never got a sex education! My mom didn't even tell me about menstruation, till it happened. I always wondered what those packages wrapped in plain brown paper were at the PX. I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse me if I put my foot in my mouth. Aids is too scary to trust to just abstinance talk IMO. I would talk that first, but also back it up with condom talk, and anything else that works. What works anyways? Getting tested and then trusting your partner will be faithful? I was lucky that aids wasn't around when I was a swinging single.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-24-2004 at 10:46 PM. |
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