05-06-2003, 08:22 PM | #81 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Quote:
Smeagol/Gollum didn't act in a way that best furthered his survival. He acted in a way that was malicious and harmful, and resulted in him being shunned by his friends and family, which left him half-starved and alone. Compare Gollum to Bilbo. Gollum spent several centuries alone in the dark, and miserable, starving. Bilbo, for the half century he had the ring, lived in a warm house, mostly happy and well fed. Who, then, was the better survivor?
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
|
05-06-2003, 08:31 PM | #82 |
Lady of Legends
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Missing. Reward if found.
Posts: 1,083
|
The one with food of course! Mmmmm....food....
__________________
The end justifies the means, thought Aziraphale. And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.* *This is not actually true. The road to Hell is paved with frozen door to door salesmen. On weekends many of the younger demons go ice-skating down it. ~Good Omens |
05-06-2003, 09:08 PM | #83 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
|
Quote:
__________________
Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
|
05-06-2003, 09:36 PM | #84 |
Rohirrim Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 590
|
a hero in my book is two things selflessness and sacrifice.
|
05-06-2003, 10:46 PM | #85 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
||||
05-07-2003, 06:29 AM | #86 |
Lurker
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Lothlórien
Posts: 3,419
|
Shakeshpeare was Christian.
__________________
There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... |
05-07-2003, 09:07 AM | #87 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
As if he had a choice? I'm sure! Let's see? Thumb screws, death on a pyre, or Church of England Protestantism? Hmm... To interpret any writer by virtue of a forced religion in his culture is narrow-minded, but hey, why not?
__________________
cya |
05-07-2003, 09:15 AM | #88 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Sorry, but I mean a REAL Christian, not just someone who claims to be on account of the state religion.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-07-2003, 10:15 AM | #89 | ||
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
||
05-07-2003, 10:26 AM | #90 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
||||
05-07-2003, 11:00 AM | #91 | ||||
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
||||
05-07-2003, 11:20 AM | #92 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
"More ideal" for him, I agree with, but to say that he turned his back on civilization, I do not.
Yes, but there is an entirely different matter between two different people born who were physically attached, and the case with Smeagol and Gollum. Siamese twins are attached. Smeagol and Gollum are within the same body. And Gollum originated from Smeagol's mind. Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
05-07-2003, 12:38 PM | #93 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
And certainly Tolkien didn't believe we are animals. He, like so many, had that species superiority complex that has allowed us to consume an entire planet without even the slightest pangs of guilt. When the maiar who care about the animals and especially the trees complained to Eru about this, Eru just said, basically, too bad. But the Ents, pitiful in the long run, were created to defend it. It didn't help much in the end, did it?
So, since Tolkien didn't ascribe to evolutionary theory, you have to admit that it's a highly personal interpretation to put the theme of The Sea Wolf onto Gollum's character.
__________________
cya |
05-07-2003, 01:03 PM | #94 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Evolution hasnt lead to man. evolution is not simply a grading scale in which we are the standard to judge by. man is just one small flicker of flame that helps to comprise this gigantic chemical reaction we call LIFE.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
05-07-2003, 02:28 PM | #95 | |
Long lost mooter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,342
|
Quote:
Gollum was not happy; he was incapable of happiness. He was miserable in all senses of the word. It is true that he did not want to live within any kind of society; the ring had unfortunately robbed him of that ability and desire. The best we can say about him is that he had attained a kind of contentment in his underground cavern, and although it was by the ring that he was kept alive, he seems not to mind (being alive, that is). That is the best we can say about his state of life enjoyment. The only time he experiences joy is when he is able to exert some form of control (catching a fish, for instance). He also does experience some satisfaction when he proves himself helpful to Frodo. It is still Gollum -- he is simply working within the universal social code as he remembers it form his days as Smeagol. His goal is still always to eventually get the Ring, though. Gollum and Smeagol are inseparable. So although Gollum desired to eat Bilbo, that small part of him from his past ("Smeagol") is happy to see him, and that is why he insists on the riddle contest. That small part of him misses having another being with whom to tell riddles (akin to his relative contentment when he is accompanying Frodo). Yes, he plans to eat him anyway, which means to me that it is still Gollum who is "at the helm" here so to speak. They are one and the same, but Gollum allows the Smeagol part to surface, probably a very painful thing for him to do, because it reminds him of "things" and causes him to come too close to being cognizant of what he was and how the choice he made so long ago has caused his current state of being. One cannot just wave away arguments with "Oh, that was Smeagol doing that." Smeagol no longer exists, but Gollum remembers Smeagol, and allows himself to become Smeagolish for a while when he is interacting with hobbits. That's my take on it. |
|
05-07-2003, 11:59 PM | #96 | |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
I found an interesting quote from the Letters of JRR Tolkien that, I believe, pertains to this discussion:
Quote:
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. Last edited by cassiopeia : 05-08-2003 at 12:00 AM. |
|
05-08-2003, 11:31 AM | #98 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
You really do hate him, don't you, Elfhelm? You seem to be blatantly choosing to ignore the fact that Tolkien was very much an environmentalist. Either that, or using an opening to do some "proselytising" of your own.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
05-08-2003, 12:16 PM | #99 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
|
Nope, I just hate dead metaphors. I don't mind old guys from antiquated times having outmoded ideas. I just can't stomach the species superiority complex persisting in the face of overwhelming evidence. I think it's forgivable for Tolkien to be old-fashioned, of course. But it's not forgivable for modern people to hide behind the authority of ancients who had less data.
__________________
cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 05-08-2003 at 12:17 PM. |
05-09-2003, 10:45 AM | #100 | |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 66
|
You know I really think you should have included the few sentences before that quote rather then snipping them off.
Quote:
hey maybe we should start a thread about what would happen if gollum had never run into bilbo. How would middle earth be different because this thread aint workin. Youre not gonna get me to think oh gollum ISNT appealing gee I guess your right. How dumb of me to be so open minded and have my own interpretation on this. Whats wrong with me. Follow the crowd and shut up psycho kitty. Well sorry. He will always be my favorite character and I will always find a deep appeal in him. He rejects so many of the things I reject and desires so many of the strange things I desire and that everybody else seems to think are unappealing. So banish me from society please. And take away my sickening humanity and make me animal. Give me dark blinding isolation. Forever.
__________________
Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Why wasn't Gollum turned into a wraith? | CAB | Middle Earth | 98 | 06-27-2006 05:41 PM |
Why Pippin says 'gollum, gollum' to Grishnakh | Lotesse | Lord of the Rings Books | 23 | 05-11-2006 11:55 AM |
Ask Gollum | Elessar the Elfstone | Lord of the Rings Movies | 28 | 08-12-2005 04:13 PM |
Gollum | zavron | Middle Earth | 8 | 12-13-2002 05:48 PM |
Some questions about Gollum | SilvaRanger | Lord of the Rings Books | 17 | 02-18-2001 07:19 PM |