08-13-2005, 11:07 PM | #81 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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How interesting, Beren - I was just thinking of bumping this thread!
Great minds think alike However, my great mind is very tired now after a long, hot day having a garage sale (have you heard that term?) and then family over for dinner, etc., so I'll join in early next week.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-14-2005, 02:16 AM | #82 | |||
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A certain med. school student is a light drinker; he enjoys the odd drink every once in a while. After graduating from shcool and starting his practice, he sees several cases of cyrrhosis (sp.?) everyday. What's the effect of this "knowledge"? He stops drinking completely, even though his drinking habits are highly unlikely to lead to cyrrhosis. So I would say that his initial state of "ignorance" was freedom while his newfound "knowledge" constrained him. After all, "ingorance is bliss" Quote:
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08-14-2005, 02:30 AM | #83 | |
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08-14-2005, 02:36 AM | #84 | |||
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EDIT: Ok, maybe this reply is a bit late, but here it is anyway: Quote:
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Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-15-2005 at 02:45 AM. |
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08-15-2005, 05:39 PM | #85 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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TOTALLY! (sorry, my inner Valley-girl just came out! ) There's several things going on behind this mind-set that IMO are not supported by Scripture, or even logic in some cases. (and now I have to stop - one of the kids just had a spill I need to fix right away! *sigh* )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2005, 04:15 PM | #86 | |
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08-16-2005, 07:43 PM | #87 | |
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*rolls up her sleeves* OK - I think I have a few minutes now - only 1 kid home at the moment (can't wait for school to start up again! ) SO - what this reminds me of are people who are willing to consider the possibility of the existence of God, but who just write off the miracles described in the New Testament without even considering the evidence for/against them. I wonder how they are willing to consider the existence of a God that can create the universe, but balk at considering if that same God can cure leprosy or not. (and the phone just rung - my oldest son's football practice is over and he needs me to pick him up! I'll put out one thought, then I'll have to come back to this...) SO - what I would like to ask you to consider is this: where else in the Bible, if anywhere, have you seen God attempt to limit mankind's accumulation of knowledge? and if you can come up with some references, what are the circumstances? Also, what do you see as God's general mindset towards knowledge? And lastly (for now), if God really wanted to limit mankind's knowledge, are there easier ways He could have taken besides setting up a tree and then telling them not to eat its fruit? If there are easier ways, why do you think He didn't take these ways? IOW, do you think perhaps there's something deeper going on than God just thinking, "Oh my God (oh wait, that's ME!) - they might gain some knowledge! I gotta punish them if they try to get some knowledge!" thing going on?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-16-2005 at 07:44 PM. |
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08-19-2005, 06:08 AM | #88 | ||||
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Last edited by Beren3000 : 08-19-2005 at 06:16 AM. |
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08-22-2005, 12:37 AM | #89 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-22-2005, 12:41 AM | #90 | ||||
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Hmm, how 'bout David numbering his warriors? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-22-2005 at 12:43 AM. |
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08-22-2005, 08:40 PM | #91 | ||
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What do you think of this passage? Ecclesiasties 1:18- With much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief. The passage seems opposed to the general message of Ecclesiasties, which many times celebrates wisdom.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-22-2005, 08:57 PM | #92 | |
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(I don't know the answer or if there even is an answer; I'm just musing)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-22-2005, 11:06 PM | #93 |
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I don't know the answer either.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-25-2005, 02:00 AM | #94 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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what do you think, though, and how would you support it?
(I know we can't know if you're right or not, but I think it's a valuable process to go through, and we usually end up learning more) Oh Beren - wherefore art thou, thread-bumper?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-25-2005, 12:58 PM | #95 | |
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I think that God will also first address us about our worst flaws. He won't tackle everything at once, for to do so would be to drive his children to despair. The current "worst flaws" he'll prick our consciences about and steadily, methodically wipe out. Once they are gone, he'll continue to the next layer, and then the next, and then the next. He'll continue this work steadily once we reach heaven, in my opinion. He'll continue until all our flaws are gone and we can stand pure and righteous before God, wholly sanctified. When does a parent discipline his or her child? When do you, RÃ*an, discipline your children? I think that at about that same place Christ draws the line. Parents use their best discernment. Sometimes they'll see it's best to simply talk to the disobedient child. Other times they'll just completely ignore the sin. Usually they will resort to every other method before they pull out the spoon. Sometimes, the disobedience is so outright that they must do this. Occasionally, a child can go . . . wrong. Discipline doesn't help. Finally, in an act of tough love, it becomes necessary for the parent to turn the child out of his or her house. I've seen this happen before, once. The parents tried everything with their disobedient teenager, and finally they just had to turn him out of the house. The teenager was being a very bad influence upon their younger children. He was smoking, carrying on with bad friends, I think doing drugs and trying to do them secretly in the house. It finally became necessary to turn him out of the house. All of this-the scolding, the spanking, and finally that ultimate terrible step-were done in love. I can't draw a line of where God thinks he should discipline and where he overlooks the offense. But he knows the human heart, and he knows what is best in every situation. I think that the model best to look at, when trying to understand his discipline, is the parent-child relationship.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2005, 01:25 PM | #96 |
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Well-thought-out, with some good examples! Good point about not exasperating, and I see that's how God works in my life, too - only working on one or two things at a time, or else I would be completely overwhelmed.
I think one thing to add is this: we know one of God's desires is that no one should perish, and IMO it's important to keep this in mind as we think on these things. How would God deal with knowledge, given that He wants no one to perish, and also given that He has allowed us to make choices, and desires us to turn to Him freely? (read thru Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. for poetic descriptions of God's feelings on this) IMO, God wants us to get to a place where we are free to know everything, and nothing will turn us from him, but this is a gradual process because of all the error and mis-information out there masquerading as true knowledge. (this got hasty at the end - I ran out of time because of a phone call I had to take - will say more later)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
08-25-2005, 01:46 PM | #97 | ||
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I think this is true also for nonbelievers who will go to hell, and for animals. All of this is designed for good. As for God's wanting people not to perish, I find this understandable too. God's nature is love. God loves everyone, including the wicked. He knows that it is for the best that these people perish, yet it tears at his heart to do it. Making choices . . . I think that God gives us the freedom to act according to our natures. God does not make us do things. He gives us a nature and personality, he plans everything to us, and he doesn't make us act out of accord to that. Freedom beyond this . . . freedom to act in a different way from what we are . . . in my opinion is not really freedom. It's random chance. Thank goodness that is not our nature! What a stupid creation that would be . God also is limited by his nature. He can only act like what he is. He is love, and he cannot stop loving or change himself to no longer love. He must act according to his nature, just as we must. We have less freedom than God only in that we are bound by sin. Sin enslaves us and perverts us, making us no longer able to act in freedom. It causes us to have a "sinful nature", which must be tossed aside in exchange for the new. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-29-2005, 04:01 AM | #98 | |
Fëanorophobic
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I'm here, Rian!
However, I don't have much to say I'm afraid: Quote:
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08-30-2005, 02:58 PM | #99 | |||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I know we have some disagreements on this subject I imagine it's only because of the complexity of it, though, and the difficulties of language. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 08-30-2005 at 03:01 PM. |
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08-30-2005, 03:09 PM | #100 | ||
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I think the Tree of TKOGAE was for several reasons - the most important being that it gave Adam and Eve a concrete way to love God back by choosing to deny themselves just a tiny bit for one that they love (as Milton says, *ack! can't find my Milton right now - am still recovering from the last two vacations!* - well you know, in the beginning, where he says how they had paradise with one tiny thing withheld). It's like how I can save the last cookie for my husband, even tho I reeeeeealy want it, so I can say "I did this for you!" God told them the truth about the tree - it was Satan who gave them the misinformation. And I think I've said this before, but the word "knowledge" was the word used for "intimate experience" - IOW, they would know the effects of evil personally, in themselves, which they hadn't before. What I mainly meant in the section you quoted is that because we have so much misinformation, sometimes when we hear the actual truth, we will misinterpret it. Or something like that
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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