06-03-2002, 01:54 AM | #81 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
Damn it I've got that Michael Jackson song in my head. I believe that he had MANY chances at redemption, but he failed.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|
06-03-2002, 01:57 AM | #82 | ||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
My work here is done. Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
||
06-03-2002, 02:13 AM | #83 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
For me it would hav been a wiser choice to repent and listen to the Valar than not. I still fail to see how otherwise was "better" Yes Anakin made a choice that Feanor did not. Vader saved his son and thus himself. Feanor did not. Is he innately evil? No? were many of his actions? Yes. Could he have been Redeemed" Yes. Did he make the choice to? No. As I said before Osse willing served Morgoth and repented. I still believe that repentence should have been the choice and fail to see how any other action would have been better
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 06-03-2002 at 02:15 AM. |
|
06-03-2002, 02:32 AM | #84 | |||||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, it makes for a more interesting plot device (did I say those evil words? ) for the oath to remain.
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
|||||
06-03-2002, 02:35 AM | #85 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
So what would Feanor have done by saving his sons? They were already in quite a bit of trouble. Again, what would have happened if he had released them from their oath?
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
06-03-2002, 02:53 AM | #86 | ||||
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
||||
06-03-2002, 02:55 AM | #87 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
*EG hits herself in the head*
Maybe it would be best if I actually finished the book before posting anymore on this subject
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
06-03-2002, 02:57 AM | #88 | ||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
Quote:
*The sound of a breaking down record ensues*
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
||
06-03-2002, 03:16 AM | #89 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
DUH. I've been teaching Saudis for to long. I got you now . Yes, I concur that things were pretty messed up. However, the quest did not ease any of the tension. As Maedhros tried to heal the wounds between the houses of Finwe, the quest for the Silmarils only made life MORE difficult for the exiles. I think that if they were working for redemption for their sins that life in Belerlaid would have been not necessarily easy but easier and further folly cause by the quest would not have arisen.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 06-03-2002 at 03:19 AM. |
|
06-03-2002, 03:37 AM | #90 | ||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
||
06-03-2002, 03:42 AM | #91 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
I'm not gainsaying your kinslaying thing I think we have truce sheep are nice. Just stay away from saudi boys.
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 06-03-2002 at 03:44 AM. |
|
06-03-2002, 03:59 AM | #92 | ||
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
||
06-03-2002, 05:11 AM | #93 | |
The Original Corruptor
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,881
|
Quote:
|
|
06-03-2002, 05:14 AM | #94 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
Quote:
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
|
06-03-2002, 11:50 AM | #95 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
#1 reason Feanor is irredeemably evil:
I have no problem identifying with him. Do a personality comparison between say.. Morgoth, Feanor, and Hitler. Talented... yes. Morgoth had talent beyond any of the Ainur. Feanor was gifted beyond any of the Noldor. Hitler, despite what his detractors say, was a talented strategian before he went insane. Charismatic... Yes. Morgoth was charismatic, he was able to fool the other Valar, manipulate and lead the fallen maiar. Feanor lead an entire nation to it's doom in a mad quest. Hitler... lead an entire nation to doom in a mad quest... Prideful.. Check. Check. Check. Considers themselves to be "misunderstood and ill-treated" Morgoth resented the fact that he was not recognized as the "Lord of Arda". Feanor, even before Morgoth was released, was quick to anger at any who gainsaid him, Hitler had a persecution complex. You can go on and on. The only difference between Feanor, and the other two is that there was a "greater" evil for him to oppose. But it still doesn't mean that he wasn't a villian. It just means that Sometimes Villians can serve a greater good.
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
06-03-2002, 12:41 PM | #96 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
But Feanor did not have malicious intent in mind. He did not wish to take over the world, or destroy masses of people. His motivations for his actions were based on his pride, AND the affects of Melkor's lies. His mistakes lay in his tendency to follow his emotions and his pride, rather than his wish to rule the world. He may have wanted power, but he certainly did not want something completely out of the boi\unds of reality.
He may have had those things in common with Melkor and Hitler, but do not take those similarities too far. His faults were on a smaller scale. Though he caused a great deal of trouble (understatement) he did go through his life with evil intent. He was a fiery spirit and that was just the way he was, but he was NOT inherently evil. And he did not lead an entire nation to doom in a mad quest, just most of one. But he did not lead most of said nation to doom in a mad quest with the purpose of leading them to doom in a mad quest. He simply let his pride take over, rather than being rational. That in itself is not being a villain.
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
06-03-2002, 01:33 PM | #97 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
||
06-03-2002, 01:42 PM | #98 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
He let pride and anger take over and in the process doomed most of a nation, but that is not villainry. I define villainry as causing 'trouble' with malicious intent, not as having issues with controlling one's emotions and pride. He did not want to wreak havoc on the world for wronging him, he wanted vengeance and to cause Melkor trouble for a. stealing the Silmarils, and b. killing Finwe, his father. At that point he lost rationality, and that drove him to do things he would not have done if he had been thinking clearly. Which means he had a bad temper. So do I. (eek. I think I'm a little too much like him. . .) That does not make him a villain. Hitler and Morgoth also, I admit, lost rationality, but they lost it on a different scale, and a different way, then Feanor.
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
06-03-2002, 02:04 PM | #99 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
EG
what about him abandoning the host of Fingolfin and then burning the ships?
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
06-03-2002, 02:31 PM | #100 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
Quote:
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The Villian | Gwaimir Windgem | Entertainment Forum | 2 | 05-06-2003 11:47 PM |