11-06-2001, 03:32 PM | #81 | |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
it is not necessary or sufficent that condition that lack of religion = brave new world I could just a well say that without religion we would be just like STNG ( star trek next generation) is anyone going to continue the challenge about the bible flaws?
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|
11-06-2001, 03:50 PM | #82 |
Hobbit-Huorn
RPG Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 695
|
Afro elf: Glad you enjoyed my response, and I would say the same about yours.
The answer to induction is practicality of course - we continue in our daily lives because, even if it is not founded in strict logic, we nevertheless percieve it as logical and tha rational response to assume it to be true. Almost every basis for science is centered in assumptions, just ones that seem logical. We can't, for example, prove that the earth actually exists. Or rather, we can't disprove that, say, some powerful force merely manipulates us into thinking the earth exists. But there are degrees of proof and faith. The question becomes whether there is reason to follow things of high faith/low proof as much as things of high proof/low faith (like science). Religion cannot really be disproven. It asks for a basis in faith - we cannot prove faith to be somehow inherently wrong. You use the example of an insane asylum, yet that does not truly relate. You cannot claim that ONE instance of a belief without proof represents all of them. As you yourself said - even if true a million times, a single instance is all that is needed to counter it. If I were to believe in gravity on faith, that would not negate the existence of gravity! Just that same, people believing in religion on the basis of faith does not disprove (or prove) that religion. It is a personal choice on their part, and has the potentiality to be true. In the end, we can not currently know what the 'big answer' is. I find it most likely to be something not yet discovered or imagined, but simply see this as probable - not guaranteed. I think that, because of this, there is no reason not to choose religion over science, or vice versa. They are all viable possibilities.
__________________
Through Truth, Power. |
11-06-2001, 07:02 PM | #83 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Mathron and anduin are officially the coolest people in this thread I can probably do that, you know.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
11-06-2001, 07:34 PM | #84 |
Radically Tolkienited
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+><
Posts: 967
|
AFRO ELF!!!!!! *takes deep breath* I dont know what to begin with. I guess the fact that Eve came from Adams side and the fact that he needed a helper. God told each and everything on the earth to MULTIPLY and replenish the earth.
How can you have a child with an ANIMAL? You cant replenish the earth with an animal as a mate and you know it and those people who made that site knew it. Women are put under mans subbjection. Man and WOMAN SINNED both of them and because of that they could'nt walk off with more then a slap on the wrist. Adam had to plow the earth while having thorns and weeds sprout up in his path, and Eve was put under mans authority because she had led him astray and had given him the fruit, and as for child labor, is that a DISHONORABEL thing? For me that pain will be BLESSED because I KNOW I DISERVE it and that a child is coming into the world. But there is one thing that YOU and those people missed. At the end of his tyrade God told the serpent that from the WOMANS(gasp noticed I said WOMAN) seed a man would spring up and the serpent would bruise his heel but the serpents head would be CRUSHED by the very same heel it had bruised and do you know who that man was?It was the MESSIAH and he came from the WOMANS(gasp again)seed not the MANS so THAT insults to women was totally mute. No God did NOT agree with poligemy, but just because man does it does'nt mean God agrees with it. Does God AGREE with Abortion? Just because he does'nt DO something about it does'nt mean he agrees with it. Think, I dont think God liked having to turn his back on Jesus his only son but because of HIS PROMISE to Adam and EVE(added the woman) and his LOVE for them his plan was carried out and the serpent was CRUSHED. Now on to other matters. WTC one persons report. Planes crashed into the trade center another persons report:the planes crashed to the ground. Both are TRUE but ONE of them happened before the OTHER. Lets see. Judas Hanged himself and maybe when they found Judas the Rope had broken. And stop saying he fell from a cliff that's stupid and DUMB. btw. Read the first few chapter of Genisis. That's where I got my answers. The somewhat enraged Samwise of the shire
__________________
Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA... |
11-07-2001, 12:37 AM | #85 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
IN A TOTALLY NON VEXED AND SLIGHTLY HUMOROUS MANNER.....
sam what you take as FACTS to me are nothing more than Fables they ARE NOT FACTS people do not argue over facts the sun rises in the east. it doesn't matter if I believe it or not. I don't have to pray that power will flow into my computer for it to work you take the myths and fables of ancient people and elevate them to sacred text you are begging the question What is the "proof" ( may mathron forgive me) of what you believe it SEEMS that you are inculcated with an idea that you accept on faith FAITH DOES NOT EQUAL FACTS when the ideas that I have expressed are based on a CONSILENCE of evidence IF YOU READ MY POST I DID CORRECT MYSELF CONCERNING JUDAS your example is just ad hoc reasoning ( a logical fallacy) i kindly suggest that you go to the site posted and read and think about the "HUNDREDS UPON HUNDRED" of flaws in the bible IF the book was seemless then you might have a shot at some kind of non faith based reasoning but accepting a work flawed with errors just by faith to me is as you said was..... my guess it that you are young " a teenager" If you wish to believe as such cool BUT if you really wish to "prove" your points you need "to step up your game" try reading some books on christain apolgetics even though I think that they are still flawed this will arm you with "BETTER" arguments than what you have posted i repeat i kindly suggest that you go to the site posted and read and think about the "HUNDREDS UPON HUNDRED" of flaws in the bible i gladly await your return when you are in "GAME SHAPE"
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-07-2001, 12:40 AM | #86 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
mathron
in defense of science over the problem of induction I'll state that science on based on a consilence of knowledge not just on one induction that will bring it crashing down but it is a framework of many "inductions"
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-07-2001, 03:34 AM | #87 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
sam I'm a teacher by trade
as an educator I am acutely aware of the failings of the educational system i see it in myself and in my students my admonishments to you are to help you of course I would like to see you come over to my side HOWEVER I wish have to worthy adversaries the better you are at presenting your ideas the better i have to be to defend mine AND vice versa ex. your WTC analogy is very poorly constructed the account of judas is one man with two different accounts of dying from two different gospels the WTC/Pentagon attack involved several planes upon several different targets saved for all posterity by modern media the judas situation is like saying that the SAME plane crashed into the WTC and The Pentagon your ex. about the rope breaking is well as you said.... falling headlong to his death and hanging are two different things what he tried to hang himself and failed then the rope broke and the fall killed him did he rise from the dead to kill himself twice interesting is it not by your account that they didn't mention the broken rope around is neck wonder why? I have have read genesis with all of its flaws thats why i don't believe it
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-07-2001, 03:36 AM | #88 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
inoldonil
you are a comic genius now can I be cool now can i please huh
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-08-2001, 05:38 PM | #89 |
Radically Tolkienited
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+><
Posts: 967
|
Afro Elf you're on.
__________________
Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA... |
11-08-2001, 05:51 PM | #90 |
Radically Tolkienited
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+><
Posts: 967
|
Afro Elf you're on.
I made a mistake, I will read the idiotic dogma that's on that website but I want to say something first, what is'nt GOOD about the beauty of the world?What is the uglyness of the Human body BEFORE the fall. Notice all this gunk they were taking about all the BAD stuff happened AFTER Adam and Eve sinned. I will read the stupidity on that website but only to give my point. You're still on.
Samwise of the Shire
__________________
Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA... |
11-08-2001, 06:49 PM | #91 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 60,865
|
Oops
Sorry folks, I seem to have made a mistake in my last post. I meant Mathron, anduin and afro-elf. I don't know how I missed that ... oh yes, and Darth Tater. He informed me of the mistake through Instant Message.
__________________
Falmon -- Dylan |
11-08-2001, 07:42 PM | #92 |
The man
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
|
I did? Well, if you say so...
Sam, try to stay cool, be nice or I'll have to forbid you to join in in entmoot debates. We debate, yes, but we don't flame. |
11-08-2001, 08:26 PM | #93 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 156
|
Quote:
If the Bible is not to be translated, it would still be in Hebrew. |
|
11-08-2001, 09:15 PM | #94 |
t2t relic
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 531
|
This could literally mean, if he takes your eye, take his, if he takes your tooth, take his, but if he hits you with [non-permanent damage], turn the other cheek.
__________________
"And the Lord spoke, "Send me your money, Empty thine wallets into my pockets my pockets, the pockets of Ryan, Ryan, he who will deliver the money unto me. Then you will truley be happy." And the people followed, and all was well." --Ryan 62:33 |
11-08-2001, 10:24 PM | #95 |
The man
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
|
In a literal translation from the Hebrew it's "Thou shalt not MURDER". Killing in defense is forgivable. As a matter of fact, monks in the past went to war to defend their monasteries.
|
11-09-2001, 02:33 AM | #96 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
sam sam sam
you use quite a few adjectives such as: dumb, stupid, idiotic, and my personal favorite dogma in a productive manner. HOWEVER, these adjectives SHOULD be used in a reflective sense why you may ask the burden of proofs rest upon your shoulders not mine extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence my reasons are based on a plethora of evidence that does not require belief a consilence of knowledge you do not have this your entire belief system is based upon a logical fallacy: begging the question using your adjectives is another logical fallacy called against the man making disparaging remarks DOES NOT prove your point it only belittles yourself and makes it obvious that you posistion is weak also stating that the things that are wrong with bible are an after effect of the fall DOES NOT explain logical incosistantcies ON THE TRANSLATION THING Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" Psalms 137:9 well it seems that if your statement were true there would be no believers because they would have killed all of thier children
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-09-2001, 04:41 AM | #97 |
Hobbit-Huorn
RPG Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 695
|
Here is a question for you, Afro-elf: Why does the burden of proof rest on him? The tenent of faith is that it does not require proof. Obviously faith can not be held as evidence, simply a personal choice. But science can no more disprove God than religion can prove his existence. The indefite state thus is resolved individually through, once again, a matter of personal faith.
You mentioned earlier that science is valid since it is built on a system of inductive reasons. I contest this. We have shown that inductive reasoning has no rational basis in logic. Thus, no matter the structure, it cannot be used as evidence. No more than I can use any amount of irrational claims to prove a point. So here is your burden of proof - show me evidence of science that I can find no fault with.
__________________
Through Truth, Power. |
11-09-2001, 07:05 AM | #98 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
mathron sam is a girl
logic is a tool it does confer actuality an example would be zeno's paradoxes just because induction has a logical short coming does not necessarily make for an existiential short coming because faith does not require proof therein lies its weakness sometypes of people try to sound all so wise by stating all things are relative we might not know the thing intself however you are a person, we are posting on entmoot, we can write the same language etc this "PROVES" that there is "some kind" of common reality no matter the "weakness' of induction science WORKS in reliable ways i made a long list in a e-mail about the gifts of science they work i do not think anyone will argue that do i pray for my computer to turn on. no I turn on the on switch. faith is NOT relaible if science and faith are equal why does science give reliable, repeatable, and predicative powers if induction is SO falliable why does the list of all the sciences i gave work? why hasn't faith done ANY of that? the burden of proof is on her because it is an extrodinary claim there are levels of feasiblity if my phones rings and someone picks it up and says afro-elf it's your mom very feasible its vladimir putin well that is within the realms of possiblity BUT its pushing it. its gil-galad wanting to recruit me for the Last Alliance well the burden of proof is on the person claiming its gil galad. THEY are making an extraordinary claim if you have a child and your child is dying of a disease and I come up to and say mathron I have a secret potion that will cure your child or you can go an get vaccaine that "known" through induction works whatcha gonna do ( call ghost busters) sorry couldn't resist you CAN NOT function without induction. your memory is about induction. washing your face, driving your car, an infinite amount of things in your life based on induction NOTHING would "work" without induction you can not say just because something has not been proven true/false that it is faith means it doesn't need proof that is just the pathway to a hell of guillibility logic has its limits to call upon the problem of induction is to state there are no absolutes but that statement is an abosulate itself that shows that there is a logical problem with the problem of induction itself i patiently await your reply
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 11-09-2001 at 07:12 AM. |
11-09-2001, 11:04 AM | #99 |
The man
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
|
Sam, Afro Elf, I'm gonna ask this now, but soon I may have to enforce it as a rule. I think it would be a good idea for the two of you to step out of the debate for a while, take a breather. Others seem to be able to understand that they don't need to flame to get their point across, but you two are obviously having trouble with that. I'm not gonna make you stop, but it's my recommendation that you do so to avoid harsher punishment in the future.
|
11-09-2001, 11:42 AM | #100 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Darth
I apologize if you thought I was in FLAME mode I thought I was fairly tame. I will pull in the reigns some more. ( sound of horses neighing in frustation)
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 11-09-2001 at 11:43 AM. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
They'd never say that! (part 2) | jammi567 | Middle Earth | 126 | 01-17-2014 06:03 PM |
Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Chapters II & III | Telcontar_Dunedain | LOTR Discussion Project | 24 | 12-13-2007 07:52 PM |
Lyrd of the Ryngs - Return of Good Architecture | Grey_Wolf | RPG Forum | 214 | 09-22-2006 02:35 AM |
They'd never say that! | Samwise Gamgee | Lord of the Rings Books | 1001 | 07-01-2006 12:12 PM |