08-14-2004, 03:05 AM | #81 | |
the Shrike
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Rian, for many, this debate is far from new, and I know that I've been around the block a few times with this subject matter as well. Sometimes ya just don't feel like typing out a book. ::shrug::
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08-14-2004, 05:21 AM | #82 | |
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... though of course you can take it as a disadvantage due to the use of my intelligence Anyway, I look with perplexity how can you switch from one way of seeing animals to another. You speak about their instinct as opossed to intelligence and then you speak about morals
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08-14-2004, 05:37 AM | #83 | |
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When you say that plankton and other micosystems are more important in this world, in which sense are you speaking? I mean, "important" should be reffered to a determined ranking of values... Could you explicit it, please? Is the most important thing the survivance of the universe exactly like we have inherited it? Is that the most important thing for the human genre? Is that the most important thing for one particular person? I would agree it is an important think to try and preserve nature but perhaps it is not the most important thing. What is it for you that makes the plankton more important?
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08-14-2004, 07:45 AM | #84 | |
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 08-14-2004 at 07:46 AM. |
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08-14-2004, 09:20 AM | #85 | |
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i think the human adversion to killing is similar... this is not to say that we can not and do not justify it for many more philosophical reasons (and thus these reasons become part of the equation)... but it's essence is still rooted in our animal past... which is in part why we take killing of those who might be closer to us in society as more serious, i.e. other people of the same country, or even more so, people we know personally... it is a refection of the old pack instinct, since on a purely philosophical level, one death should be just as important as another what i'm trying to point out is the 'gray' nature of intelligence, morality and instinct... again, i don't think there is a sharp line between humans and animals on this issue i'm curious if anyone would like to comment on my hypothesis (in the now-infamous #64) about one of today's current animals, i.e. chimps, microevolving in such a way as to develop intelligence similar to our own do you think this is possible, given a long enough time frame? if so, does it change the way we think about them now?
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08-15-2004, 12:32 PM | #86 | |
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You say that some experiments have proved that animals can follow their instincts or not. Perhaps it is simply that we do not know "all the equations", as you put it, that rule the instinct of those animals. Anyway, I don't think that an animal may feel itself frustrated and the end of its life because of the use it has given to its "liberty".
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08-15-2004, 12:43 PM | #87 | |
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But what I'll say is that for me there is a separation of grades in the evolution of men. Though we come from animals, we're not the same animals. I mean: humans began to exist when autoconscience first appeared (and with that I mean liberty, intelligence and love). How that came to appear I don't think there's natural science today that can explain it. But, until it be explained, I'll take that humans are different, with a qualified difference, of the "humanoid" from which we came.
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08-15-2004, 04:24 PM | #88 |
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Chimps are not the only animals to use "tools". A kingfisher (the bird) once observed that when people fed the ducks at the duckpond with bread, that the fish would feed as well. The kingfisher adapted this method to suit his purposes, and utilised a piece of bread as "bait" in his beak, which he dangled in the water, waiting for fish to come and grab the bait. Unfortunately, kingfishers are solitary animals, so this information would never likely be passed on to offspring. Increasingly, we are beginning to realise that the things that were once considered to set us apart from animals, are increasinly hallmarks of the animal kingdom; eg, warfare, bipedalism, a propensity for language and communication, rape, tool usage, and so forth.
What does everyone think about that case of that monkey suffering from a brain defect, and adapting to bipedalism, that was in the news recently?
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08-15-2004, 04:55 PM | #89 | |
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08-16-2004, 02:00 AM | #90 | |
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(That's ok, I think I'm done here, too - if people seriously believe we're either mere animals, or animals are on the same level as humans, well ... I must say I can't blame them, given the indoctrination they get nowdays ... )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 02:02 AM | #91 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 02:04 AM | #92 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 08:44 AM | #93 |
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We're animals! And I believe I got "indoctrinated" before you Rian.....
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08-16-2004, 10:30 AM | #94 |
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another interesting example i heard the other day was about certain birds who would nest inside home depot stores (large warehouse-like lumber stores, for those who are not familiar)... they had learned to circle around the optic movement detector in order to open the door and get in and out
on the rest, as i said, there is certainly a difference... but i think it is a mistake to draw the lines too sharp... one must remember that morality and intelligence are human 'concepts'... ways of expressing what we see in the world... but as is so often true with words, they do not always capture the full meaning of reality
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08-16-2004, 01:44 PM | #95 | |
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When I say the word "important" i mean it in the sense of vitality. If an alien was to look at our planet and analyze the relationship of every creature on it they would immediatly conclude that the small buggers were the primary earthlings and everything else was essentially around because of them. In our global ecosystem plants and microorganisms are MUCH more important then us big brainy creatures. This is true of course because we rely on these creatures for our very existance. The reverse is not true. As the very bottom (and therefore the foundation) of the food chain, if they crumble then the whole thing comes down. Fortunately its not a huge worry. We can kill off species here and there but we cant even begin to make a dent in the countless numbers of little bitty creatures that support our ecosystem and ourselves. They feed us. They break all organic matter down so it can be reused by us. And they give us rather vital things like oxygen and fuel. And what do we do? We are aware of them? Well la dee da... You tell me who is more important after seeing how one sided it is.
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08-16-2004, 02:04 PM | #96 |
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But it is a "special" awareness!
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08-16-2004, 02:27 PM | #97 | ||
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(perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying - I meant that kids are taught to think that way in school.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 02:29 PM | #98 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 02:33 PM | #99 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-16-2004, 02:36 PM | #100 | |
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