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#81 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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Really? Nowhere in LotR did I garner even the slightest suggestion Aragorn might have fancied a bit of Eowyn.
He understood where she was coming from, I'm sure, but was already in love with another, and moreover, knew that Eowyn was not in love with him, but she was in love with the idea of being in love with what he represented. On the other hand, Aragorn was what, 80 or so when he was crowned King. That's a long time without nookie. Perhaps that's why he was so fearsome in combat - all that repressed 'energy' ![]() |
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#82 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 93
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I liked the way Arwen was used in the movie. The scenen where she rides out with Frodo is excellent. After the Anduin consumes the Nazgul we see that Arwen has taken a scratch on her cheek from a tree branch. She lays Frodo down and her tears begin to flow. The tears cascade over her own wound. This conveys that her tears are impersonal, tears of salvation and redemption for the ringbearer. Shortly thereafter she sacrifices her immortality for Aaragorn. This little sequence really encapsulates the theme of the trilogy. Quest, impersonal tears and sacrifice. It brings a theme that will be expanded in other characters later into the movie trilogy early on so the audience is prepared for it. I really liked it and the point could not have been made by using one of the male characters.
So I liked Arwen in the movie (ducks arrow) |
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#83 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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![]() Takes careful aim and fires.
![]() I HATED the Flight to the Ford scene (as everyone that has read my posts knows).
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#84 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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errr Coolismo, it's nice you gathered all that from the sequences.
That's the best thing about it all - everyone gets something different from such a film. However, I think you are reading much more into it than PJ ever intended, it was just another misleading 'death' of Frodo, and showing that Arwen cares about us little folk. For myself, I could even stand the flight to the ford sequence in itself (btw interesting to see if Arwen bears a scar from the wound in the flight - it's a well known fact elves don't scar ![]() Oh well - film is still great though ![]() |
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#85 |
Swan-buggerer
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The rainy, grey north
Posts: 69
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Anyone who has read the books cannot possibly like the treament given Arwen and the flight to the ford scene. Her beefed up role only served to weaken Strider's presence (when she surprised them in the wild), and further nullify the presence of two elf-lords, Gandalf, Strider and the Hobbits of whom the author felt were needed to counter the the Ringwraiths. Oh, need I say the Ringwraiths were made to look much less perilous by Arwen's role changes as well? All of that simply to add a 'strong female role'? Barf.
I know that we're not supposed to compare the film to the books tit-for-tat, (and I haven't - by in large, I liked it very much) but so much was done so well, it makes the deviations seem completely stupid. Lelond, off to see it again.
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#86 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 93
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The book is undoubtedly superior to the movie, no question i'd rather have pipeweed and the book than popcorn and the movie everytime.
Look the Nazgul are already weakened as a threat in the movie. They are worse at combat than even the orcs. Alright we lose Glorfindel and maybe we reckon Frodo not to be as brave as we read it in the book. But the scene in no way weakens our beloved king. Surely it strengthens him because we see him accepting the troth of a strong woman (brrrrrrr) moments later. BTW liv tyler seems to gain/lose about 10 pounds through the movie, maybe they did beef up her role. |
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#87 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 76
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![]() My feelings are that Arwen's role in the movie is fine. We all feel bad that Glorfindel was left out, but that's because we know who Glorfindel was. To the vast majority (to whom PJ had to target this film to fulfill the fiduciary duty he owes his producers) he is just another tall blond dude on a horse...and keep in mind that there was/is considerable debate even within Tolkien Geek circles over who exactly Glorfindel was.
As far as lessening Aragorn's character, remember that he spends a good deal of time himself in the first half of TLOTR second-guessing himself and his own choices...in my opinion, he doesn't really get "kingly" until he passes into Gondor...Legolas and Gimli are described as seeing this side of Aragorn for the first time when Eomer challenges him in the fields...right?
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Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye. |
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#88 |
Swan-buggerer
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The rainy, grey north
Posts: 69
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I have to respectfully disagree oh foul Dwimmerlaik. I can understand Glorfindel's ommision as without multiple character compression, (as you rightly said), this plot would confuse and confound (and ultimately piss-off) the audience. I'm not lamenting that he was left out, but they completely ignored the fact that Elrond's ring (you know, what the movies are about?), brought the flood, with Gandalf throwing in grinding boulders and white foamy horses. Strider and the hobbits brought up the rear with flaming brands as to trap the nazgul between fire and the rushing water. These 'true-to-the-book' scenes would have been cake to include, been more dramatic, and a better intro into elvish 'magic', instead of having to beef up a role that wasn't there to begin with.
I don't agree about Aragorn second-guessing himself much. At least not to the point of seeming incompetent. He safely guided and protected the hobbits on perhaps their most vunerable portion of the quest. He faught off the nazgul at Weathertop, found the the Athelas, and tended Frodo's wounds. He seemed extremely capable and wise imho - he only got better as his task became more defined.
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- Lelond, your friendly neighborhood Adan Last edited by Lelondul : 01-29-2002 at 06:16 PM. |
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#89 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 23
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Well put Lelondul!
![]() I have to say, find your take on things interesting coolismo.... I still don't understand why Arwen's tears over her little scratch are impersonal tears of redemption...could you explain? But more importantly, I strongly disagree that Arwen in any way strengthens Aragorn's character! - She sneaks up on him in the woods, while he's bumbling about, searching for athelas. I'm sure, being part elf, she COULD do it...but why WOULD she do it? Putting it in there only makes him look less competent. Not quite the master woodsman, eh? - In the book, the only reason Frodo made it from Weathertop to Rivendell was Aragorn's healing w/athelas. In the movie, he only thinks of it in desperation after it's clear Frodo isn't going to make it. Not quite the master of herb-lore, eh? Then who rides in at the nick of time to save Frodo? None other than Arwen super-elf! ![]() - In Rivendell, Aragorn has some sort of identity crisis...not wanting to accept his kingship? I thought that was a pretty lame choice by PJ, making him look weak and unsure. But who is there to talk him up? Why, it's Arwen of course! - To make matters worse, I've heard rumors that Arwen will be the one to bring him Narsil later in the story. Silly Aragorn...running off to fulfill his destiny without reforging the sword that represents everything he is. Good thing Arwen will be there to save his butt...again. I think of Aragorn from the book as the prototypcial ranger. He should be stoic, noble, kind, wise, fierce, humble yet confident....with the dignity and majesty of the greatest of kings hidden behind a veil of mystery. Compared that, the movie Aragorn looks like a weenie. Well, maybe not a total weenie. He still fights like a banshee...and all the ladies seem to think he's pretty good looking. But I still think he lost ALOT of depth in the movie, mostly at the hands of Arwen. *pant* *pant* my rant is done...for now ![]()
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What has it got in it's pocketsess? Last edited by Billadillo : 01-29-2002 at 05:36 PM. |
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#90 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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I'd be very wary of bandying phrases like:
'Anyone who has read the books cannot possibly like the treament given Arwen and the flight to the ford scene.' Why? Because you are absolutely wrong. People all have different opinions of stuff and are perfectly entitled to them. As far as the film went, it was OK. Not brilliant, but it'll do. As far as the Tolkien buff in me felt, it blew chunks. But I can live with it. |
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#91 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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![]() Billadillo - my thoughts exactly.
![]() I've complained about how Frodo also never gets to resist the Nazgul too - which takes away so much from his character and why Gandalf thinks HE should be the one to carry the Ring to Mordor (besides many other reasons of course).
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-29-2002 at 05:52 PM. |
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#92 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 93
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It just hinted for me that Arwen would take the wound from Frodo if she could, redeem it from him or pay it off herself if she could. There she is with her tears streaming down her torn cheek while Frodo gasps, having been laid down on the bank. We have seen Arwen's skill and strength and she has all the horsemanship of a Joan of Arc. Then it seems as though she can command the river to blow the riders away but might seem helpless to stem the onrush of her tears. It just made a moving image after all that rushing horsey waves and, since there was no need of a cliffhanger, worked kinda well.
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#93 |
Swan-buggerer
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The rainy, grey north
Posts: 69
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I'll bandy my opinions about as I wish fell rodent! *raises sword to Gerbil*. Indeed with all the recklessness of Aragorn (the movie-Aragorn anyway) shall I proclaim how you all feel about the film!
If you are one to argue such fact as 'opinion' than so be it, the road will be hard and frought with peril ![]()
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#94 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 93
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just an aside....
Funny thing there, Viggo added a personal message in the movie. In the scene where Arwen left with Frodo, he said to her: "Min Älskling", which was probably not in the original script, because it means "my love" in Danish! |
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#95 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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[QUOTE]I'll bandy my opinions about as I wish fell rodent![QUOTE]
Errr yes, that was kind of the point of my post. Quote:
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#96 |
Enting
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: south england
Posts: 93
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why i like Arwen at the Ford 2
I like the scene because its a preface for the death of Boromir. We see again Aragorn with his own wound on his arm crying impersonal tears at Boromirs demise. Aragorn then redeems Boromir after his death as his captain (he persues the orcs) and his king (he dons the gloves and we see them with the ring of barathingywotsit). Ok maybe I'm reading into it but he is Estel and hopefully this might help you to like Arwen a bitty more.
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#97 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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![]() Sorry - doesn't help me hate Jackson's changes with Arwen any less. I don't mind her having more screen - he just went way overboard.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-30-2002 at 04:40 PM. |
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#98 |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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Gerbil... be careful. Lelondul is into swans... but you never know...
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#99 | |
protector of orphaned rabbits
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place!
Posts: 1,236
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Quote:
but anyways, i didn't think that the Nazgul would need to be good fighters.. i mean they have the whole, your-so-afraid-of-me thing and everyone runs away. i dunno, im not an expert like you guys(and girls) and i am relativley new to the whole tolkein world (one year).. so correct me if im wrong.. my ADD sometimes gets a tidbit in the way
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#100 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 797
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