Hurricane Katrina

[Ben]

Let me ask a question - does anyone here still believe that the relief and rescue efforts were acceptable or understandable? I'm not talking about which agency or which level of government was responsible for the efforts - I'm saying, have the overall relief efforts been good enough for America? SGH? Spock? If anyone thinks the relief efforts have been satisfactory, please post and I'll address that. If not, we can now go about addressing the issue of why the relief efforts were not up to snuff, and who messed up.

Where was the State's contingency plan? The federal government, as far as I understand, is supposed to stay out of the way of the states for the most part in things like that. - Tessar

You know, I was also confused about how the federal, state, and local governments were supposed to coordinate in the face of this kind of disaster. I did some research, and I found proof that the federal government is supposed to not only not stay out of the way, but actually take charge. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is now part of the Department of Homeland Security.

On the official federal website of the Department of Homeland Security, I found this (emphasis added):

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS.

Does anyone dispute that the federal government, under its own regulations, was supposed to have "primary responsibility" for the relief efforts? If so, please respond using information from government websites or news reports. Or even respond using snide comments and opinions. If not, then this is settled - the federal government was obligated to have taken charge during this Hurricane aftermath. Still unresolved on this thread is the question on who was supposed to have taken charge in building the levees, making preparations, etc. I'll get to that in a later post.

I'm sure the reaction from Louisiana and New Orleans also hindered the rescue efforts, but according to the Department of Homeland Security, the federal government was the one that was supposed to bring them all together and take charge! On August 28th, right before the storm hit, Gov. Blanco of Louisiana officially asked for federal help - here's the letter she sent, and note the date.

Personally, I think that since no major hurricane has hit Louisiana since the 60s, it makes more fiscal sense to have a federal agency ready to respond anywhere in the country than an independent, local group that could sit dormant for decades.

. However, that was just the most glaring example - Bush continued with his schedule of giving stump speeches about Iraq and domestic policy, and was at a birthday celebration for John McCain.

Lief - I've seen your well-supported, logical points and I'll get to them next.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

But we can't know that. This is where it can, and will, get partisan. It will be hard to stay politically neutral because it's such a charged issue.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

For example, it will be hard to ignore how the Iraq war took resources away (from levee maintenance and from the National Guard),

The reason the National Guard did not leap to readiness immediately is no doubt in part because only the state governor can call martial law. Louisiana's governor did not call martial law swiftly. Further, even after the National Guard is called to deal with emergencies, I have heard that it takes a few days for it to get where it needs to be.

A high ranking government official said that the issue of levee maintenance would doubtless be dealt with later. At present the Administration is just focusing on dealing with the disaster.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

as did tax cuts for the rich (unless Donald Trump donated his windfall to levee building...).

Tax cuts for the wealthier segment of the population allows the expansion of private businesses and companies. It increases employment among less wealthy citizens.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The racial divisions are clear for anyone to see who has a television (I haven't seen those reports of "blacks looting; whites taking what they need"; that's disgusting; anyway, why is it in these situations that it's suddenly OK to shoot people just because they're "looting"?? Surely a human life is worth more than a TV.).

I have no interest in defending the media. It's all liberal and Democratic anyway (note my blatant partisan feelings) . I'll just mention really quickly that the Bush Administration does not control the media.

The only other comment I'll make is that perhaps there may be a little truth in this seeming racism in the media. Often blacks belong to the poorer segment of society. This would mean that blacks often might need more than whites do. Therefore it might be possible that when blacks take things, it looks like looting, because they need more. I'm just mentioning the possibility.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Actually, I'm pretty sure Clinton would have performed a million times better in that situation.

I think a million times worse. However, that's all just left vs. right.

[Acalewia]

I'm going to interupt the politics for a moment. I live just outside of Little Rock and every hotel and motel is full of evacuees. I work at Wal-mart and I have talked to people from N.O. Recently ANG's Bowie Bregade went to LA. The last I heard, Arkansas had at least 22,000 evacuees. Yesterday, my famoly and I went through our clothes and donated 4 boxes of clothes. Can we stop looking at this from a political standpoint and do what we can to help those that need it? I know help was slow, but we can't go around pointing fingers at who to blame. It was no one's fault, just some people couldn't get out on time. Are you going to blame them for that?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by bmilder

Does anyone dispute that the federal government, under its own regulations, was supposed to have "primary responsibility" for the relief efforts? If so, please respond using information from government websites or news reports. Or even respond using snide comments and opinions. If not, then this is settled - the federal government was obligated to have taken charge during this Hurricane aftermath.

Bmilder, I feel that it is a mistake for you to say, "no voice means assent." You have spent many hours researching your posts and your various points, and I have great respect for that fact. Not everyone has that kind of time and interest to devote to the debate, so I doubt that you'll get responses equal to your own arguments yet.

Originally Posted by Acalewia

I'm going to interupt the politics for a moment. I live just outside of Little Rock and every hotel and motel is full of evacuees. I work at Wal-mart and I have talked to people from N.O. Recently ANG's Bowie Bregade went to LA. The last I heard, Arkansas had at least 22,000 evacuees. Yesterday, my famoly and I went through our clothes and donated 4 boxes of clothes. Can we stop looking at this from a political standpoint and do what we can to help those that need it?

That is the attitude the Bush Administration has been taking at present, thank goodness. Someone from the FEMA said that issues like the levees and others will receive attention, but right now they are just focusing on the crisis at hand.


Another point:

One difficulty with just flying a bunch of planes over the city of New Orleans and dropping water and food is that it could very likely cause massive rioting. People would struggle to get what they can, and the violence would increase. Distribution has to be done in an organized way, and that requires some time to set up.

The National Guard also requires time to pull out, and that has to be done by the state governor.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Tax cuts for the wealthier segment of the population allows the expansion of private businesses and companies. It increases employment among less wealthy citizens.

So yer saying tax cuts for the rich were more important then the lives of the poor? Ill let you off the hook Lief. You dont have to actually answer that question. Because it is quite clearly loaded. But do be careful about blindly defending any and all practices simply because they are conservative. Think for yourself on each issue. Killing people to make rich people richer will always be an issue youll want to avoid if you are in that camp. Theres no positive to be gained from it and very little way to spin it to your advantage.

[Insidious Rex]

I don’t understand. What the hell?? Why do this?

At least five fatally shot by police on New Orleans bridge

September 4, 2005

NEW ORLEANS — Police shot and killed at least five people today after gunmen opened fire on a group of contractors traveling across a bridge on their way to make repairs, authorities said.

Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said police shot at eight people, killing five or six.

Fourteen contractors were traveling across the Danziger Bridge under police escort when they came under fire, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers.

They were on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to help plug the breech in the 17th Street Canal, Hall said.

None of the contractors was killed, Hall said.

The bridge spans a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

Could it be that these people really thought they had such a vested interest in keeping New Orleans in anarchy that they would go to these extremes to kill contractors trying to patch the broken levees? I don’t understand this at all…

[Lief Erikson]

My guess is that it was a criminal gang. Criminals have been the ones getting the most out of this chaos. The rapes and a good deal of plundering are their fault.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So yer saying tax cuts for the rich were more important then the lives of the poor?

I was objecting to the statement that these are just "tax cuts for the rich." The tax cuts are designed to open up jobs for the poor. That was my point.

If some people at state or federal level believed a hurricane at New Orleans was highly unlikely, they may have decided, based upon that belief, to use the funds in what they considered to be a more productive fashion.

[The Gaffer]

I think that is a more difficult stance to maintain now it is clear that lack of federal funds was an issue in maintenance of the levees.

However, I agree that we should try to leave off the political stuff for now. It is still valid, and very important IMO, that we consider the causes and contributory factors, though. I don't think we should let the politicians off the hook altogether with "let's just concentrate on helping the survivors".

I am glad to hear how some of us here are directly helping out. I am also glad that the US has accepted offers of aid from the UK, Europe, UN etc so my government can help out. At least we remote mooters can feel that we're doing something now apart from the obvious donations to the NGOs.

It seems that the situation is under control now. Now for the hard part (counting the dead and helping the victims to rebuild their lives).

[Nurvingiel]

I just got back from a one week, remote camp. There are no words.

[Butterbeer]

yeah apparently the uk is today sending half a million food and water packages ...

kind of late you might say... but apparently we've been virtually stoppped doing anything by various US authorities .... though for sure they will have been busy ... busy doing what is another matter


Insidious Rex Quote:
Originally Posted by Lief Erikson
Tax cuts for the wealthier segment of the population allows the expansion of private businesses and companies. It increases employment among less wealthy citizens.

So yer saying tax cuts for the rich were more important then the lives of the poor? Ill let you off the hook Lief. You dont have to actually answer that question. Because it is quite clearly loaded. But do be careful about blindly defending any and all practices simply because they are conservative. Think for yourself on each issue. Killing people to make rich people richer will always be an issue youll want to avoid if you are in that camp. Theres no positive to be gained from it and very little way to spin it to your advantage.

You got to hand it to Lief to not be affraid to go out on some shaky, or at least very hard to defend limbs here .... i've got him on the ropes in Theology already (kidding!) ... he's trying to defend the morality of mass destruction

Actually to my suprise lief i am enjoying our friendly non-partisan exchanges ... though you didn't answer the one KEY important question .... about the RPG

Anyway, BACK ON TOPIC (before anyone says ...)

i've been reading a lot yesterday about this .... one thing that struck me that of the troops, NG and police etc on the ground ... many especially the National Guard had no orders and didn't KNOW what they were supposed to be doing....


Also, what i find mind bogglingly inept in the very least ... they had a plan to evacuate large numbers to the superdome, yes? ... yet they could not maintain law and order there? There should have been large stocks of water, generators, food, disposable toilets, AND LARGE NUMBERS OF Police, MEDICS AND NATIONAL GUARD to ENSURE LAW AND ORDER, MEDICAL ATTENTION, AND SOME organisation!!!

No weapons allowed in .. etc ...

ok easy to say in hindsight...but my point is very clear and to me at least, VERY simple and true: they didn't need hindsight to organise the superdome before the Hurricane hit.... electricity, communications, water, medics, food supplies, and many many police and guards to ensure safety!

One easy thing to have done for the one place they had decided to take people to!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

kind of late you might say... but apparently we've been virtually stoppped doing anything by various US authorities .... though for sure they will have been busy ... busy doing what is another matter

Ben posted a link to a picture which answers that question

On your first point, I think that international protocol states that a recipient state has to request aid before it can be given. We couldn't send anything until the offer was formally accepted.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

You got to hand it to Lief to not be affraid to go out on some shaky, or at least very hard to defend limbs here

I think Insidious was misinterpreting what I was trying to say at that moment.

About the RPG, I did respond to that at the end of post #580. It would be easy to miss that post, as it's at the very end of page 4.

[HOBBIT]

Butterbeer - they didn't want everyone showing up there.

There was a mass evacuation of New Orleans before the storm hit. 1,000,000 or so evacuated I believe. Those who couldn't leave or didn't want to leave were left - mostly poor black people.


Those who couldn't evacuate the city were told to go to the Superdome or the Convention Center.

At the convention center there wasn't any supplies. I don't know what the supplies were at the Superdome - but they certainly were not adequate. I guess they did not anticipate so many people, and that NO would flood so much, that the toliets would stop working, and that the electricity would go out.

They couldn't prevent people going in there with guns.

[Mercutio]

I wonder what the crime/violence rate currently is down there compared to normal New Orleans. Sadly, I doubt it's that different. NO was an extremely violent city.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

I wonder what the crime/violence rate currently is down there compared to normal New Orleans. Sadly, I doubt it's that different. NO was an extremely violent city.

Violent or not, cities in anarchy aren't comparable with normal cities.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

Butterbeer - they didn't want everyone showing up there.


They couldn't prevent people going in there with guns.

...people showing up :

then why set it up? they must have known there would be people who had not or could not evacuate?

re: guns.

why not? You cannot go and check-in on a flight at an airport with guns. if the superdrome had been heavily guarded, manned and organised it would have been easy to maintain order.. 25 or 50 armed NG or police at the door or entrance with guns can easily say to entrants .. please come in good sir... but no weapons allowed in here, thank-you. leave them here with your name or we'll give a you a weapon ticket similar to a cloakroom ticket etc.

No questions asked WHY you have weapons good sir, but you ain't taking it inside: we'll look after it for you.

A few hundred armed guards, police etc inside and some organisation would have made it a safer place... not a lawless, intimidating, fearful foul stench of a corner of living hell with rape, beatings, murder... theft etc.

[brownjenkins]

my friend finally turned up last night... all week in an attic with food and water he had stocked up on... another mutual friend from the forum went to new orleans today, picked him up, and took him to his house in arizona to stay 'till things clear up a bit... best news i've heard in a while

[Lotesse]

One of my boyfriend's clients from New Orleans lost everything, everything except the Mercedes he'd hooked him up with, so this fellow and his whole family have packed up all they've got left in that car and are moving out here to L.A. My man said he's going to take care of them once they get out here, which is so like him - he's always so very generous with people, way more so than even I ever am.
Hey, here's an interesting link to look at, about the levees and the city layout:

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html.../index_02.html

[Tree Dweller]

I just wanted to add a little info about the reponse time in these types of situations.


I stayed here in Pensacola, FL last year when hurrice Ivan slammed into us. It was one of the worst storms this city has every seen and it tore this place up. After the storm passed, it took 2 or 3 days to start bringing in water, ice and MREs. That being said....Ivan was a catagory 3, Katrina was a strong 4....Pensacola (the city) in all above sea level, New Orleans (as we all know)is not....all of Pensacola's roads (except the I-10 bridge) were open, we all know what happened to the roads in New Orleans. Not to mention the fact that FL is very experienced in handling these situations and it still took a couple of days.


I am saying all of this so that we do not jump to conclusions about how fast these recovery efforts can take place.

[Spock]

well said but I fear it will get lost in the hysterics of some.