Women in LOTR - Page 5

cassiopeia · 06-05-2002, 08:26 PM

I don't really think a female in the fellowhsip would affect them that much. In the book the don't talk about bathing or toilet stops or anything like that. Legolas doesn't seem intereted in women. Gimli only likes Galadriel. Frodo is more concerned about his quest. Boromir is obsessed with the ring. Sam loves Rosie back home. Gandalf - Umm I don't think so. Aragorn loves Arwen. Ok that leaves Merry and Pippin. They are a good team, so don't need anyone else.

Maybe a female would be embaressed if she saw Frodo naked at Cirith Ungol.

As for a female dwarf, I don't think anyone would find her attractive.

Not even Gimli after seeing Galadriel.

Lizra · 06-05-2002, 08:28 PM

Gandalf... I think so!

I've always had a thing for the older man.

cassiopeia · 06-05-2002, 08:48 PM

Umm Ok, but Gandalf is about 2000 years old. (I know he's probably older than that, but I won't go into that here). You must really like them old.

Tar-Elendil · 06-05-2002, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ërendil
I think that the whole "Can not be killed by a mortal man" thing means gender, as most of the people who have tried to kill him before (if that had ever happened) would have been male, either being an Elf or a Man as women were not expected to fight then.
Hobbits would not be included because they were a peaceful race and kept themselves to themselves, they were pretty much undiscovered so the Nazgul king would have no need to protect himself from them if he didn't know that the race existed.

I think that it was Eowyn that killed him btw, not Merry, but without him she wouldn't have had the chance to strike the fatal blow.

just cuz they tried to kill em before doesnt mean that they couldnt later. and it isnt "by a mortal man" its "not by the hand of man will he fall" man is race. Not gender. if it was gender it woul say a man. just cuz hobbits were peaceful doesnt rule them out! it was a prediction! like melian with beren 9though she was a maiar). tell me why hobbits couldnt be included. the whole thing you said about the witch king protectin himself from hobbits isnt makin sense to me at all. Them being "undiscovered" by him is \irrelevant.

Tar-Elendil · 06-05-2002, 09:20 PM

oh and when melian made her prediction did she know beren ? no. had men even came from the east yet?
thats like glorfindels prediction.
(yea yea i know melian was a maiar but still!)

Starr Polish · 06-05-2002, 09:53 PM

Tar-Elendil, the 'not by the hand of man will fall' may have been said that way to throw the Witch King off, thinking he had nothing to fear from the race of men, when it was actually saying he wouldn't be killed by a 'male'.

A strike to the back of the knee would not kill someone. I don't doubt Eowyn would have been unable to kill him if it hadn't been for Merry, though.

Tar-Elendil · 06-05-2002, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Tar-Elendil, the 'not by the hand of man will fall' may have been said that way to throw the Witch King off,

i doubt seriously glorfindel knew for sure what would occur. just a flash of foresight. did huor know that his son would go to gondolin also? no yet he said "from you and me a new star shall arise" to turgon speakin of earendil.
the sword had spells wound about it. i dont see why eowyns shot would have killed him but its possible and right now im in the middle. i say they both killed him.
i just dont think he meant gender when he said this. and well remember the sword had spells on it. the nazgul werent exactly alive or dead. weird things could happen. the spells coulda brought em down, you never know.

Starr Polish · 06-05-2002, 10:03 PM

True, true.

Well, in a way they DID both kill him, but Eowyn, IMO, gave the final and 'fatal' blow.

Ërendil · 06-06-2002, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil

just cuz they tried to kill em before doesnt mean that they couldnt later. and it isnt "by a mortal man" its "not by the hand of man will he fall" man is race. Not gender. if it was gender it woul say a man. just cuz hobbits were peaceful doesnt rule them out! it was a prediction! like melian with beren 9though she was a maiar). tell me why hobbits couldnt be included. the whole thing you said about the witch king protectin himself from hobbits isnt makin sense to me at all. Them being "undiscovered" by him is irrelevant.

Sorry about the "by a mortal man" thing- i was working from memory (which seems to be deserting me resently).
I still doubt that the hobbits wouldn't have been included as Gandalf said Sauron had overlooked the race of hobbits before, and he would not do so again. Because he had overlooked them, he might have thought not to protect his ringwraiths against them.
These are only my thought's and ideas, no one has to accept them and it is most likely that i am wrong.

***azalea*** · 06-07-2002, 10:58 PM

Everyone knows you had it right -- Eowyn killed the witch-king, but would prob not have had the chance w/out the aid of Merry. Meryy did not kill him.

Tar-Elendil · 06-07-2002, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Everyone knows you had it right -- Eowyn killed the witch-king, but would prob not have had the chance w/out the aid of Merry. Meryy did not kill him.

lets not say that eowyn killed him..lets justs ay 'they both did"
i was disagreeing on her views about thewhole quote thing. I say they both killed the booger. the spells weakened the witch king enough to eowyn to hit her toothpick of a shot.

***azalea*** · 06-07-2002, 11:32 PM

Sounds good to me!

Cirdan · 06-08-2002, 12:03 AM

toothipck? The only women in combat through the entire trilogy, battling the second more powerful evil dude and you stick her with a toothpick?

Actually, I agree it was a team effort, even though the death blow is not made explicitly clear.

Truth is, I want to keep this circular, tit-for-tat thread going on forever and ever.

What can I say, I am a masochist.

BeardofPants · 06-08-2002, 12:23 AM

Quote:

But suddenly he [the witch king] too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the habuerk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.

"Eowyn! Eowyn!" cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty.

It was definately a joint effort. Merry planted the blow that made the witch king stumble - else it wouldn't've been possible for Eowyn to place her shot - and then she managed to pull off the death blow.

Tar-Elendil · 06-08-2002, 12:33 AM

i am wondering if Eowyn's blow was pointless. mebbe it was the spells wound about the blade that did the Nazgul in. Or mebbe it just allowed eowyn to deal the death shot? It doesnt say anywhere(that uve found) what exactly happened.

BeardofPants · 06-08-2002, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
i am wondering if Eowyn's blow was pointless. mebbe it was the spells wound about the blade that did the Nazgul in. Or mebbe it just allowed eowyn to deal the death shot? It doesnt say anywhere(that uve found) what exactly happened.

You trying to steal her thunder?

Just cos she's a woman, she can't possibly have dealt the death blow...

Tar-Elendil · 06-08-2002, 12:43 AM

lol..definately not trying to steal her thunder
if it was a man i would be saying the exact same thing..

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-08-2002, 01:03 AM

I'd say it was a team effort, but Eowyn really "killed" him, because she dealt the death blow. And I would definitely not call it a 'toothpick of a shot.' It was with all her remaining strength that she hit him, after slaying his steed and having her arm broken. The spells on the Merry's blade may have weakened him, but I would give Eowyn more credit for actually killing him. I don't think the Witch King would have died if it were not for Eowyn. Not that she would have slain him without the help of Merry. I think the prophesy was inadvertantly about gender--I don't think Glorfindel knew what would happen, but I think the words were 'twisted' to mean that.

Nienna Grey · 06-08-2002, 01:05 AM

I've never wished there had been a woman in the Fellowship. To be honest, I've never really thought about that question before. I suppose it could have been interesting if there had been a female character although I don't see that it would have made the story better in any way.

Ërendil · 06-09-2002, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil

lets not say that eowyn killed him..lets justs ay 'they both did"
i was disagreeing on her views about thewhole quote thing. I say they both killed the booger. the spells weakened the witch king enough to eowyn to hit her toothpick of a shot.

Yeah I will agree on that, but i don't think that it was a toothpick of a shot.

06-05-2002, 08:26 PM	#81
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I don't really think a female in the fellowhsip would affect them that much. In the book the don't talk about bathing or toilet stops or anything like that. Legolas doesn't seem intereted in women. Gimli only likes Galadriel. Frodo is more concerned about his quest. Boromir is obsessed with the ring. Sam loves Rosie back home. Gandalf - Umm I don't think so. Aragorn loves Arwen. Ok that leaves Merry and Pippin. They are a good team, so don't need anyone else. Maybe a female would be embaressed if she saw Frodo naked at Cirith Ungol. As for a female dwarf, I don't think anyone would find her attractive. Not even Gimli after seeing Galadriel. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

06-05-2002, 08:28 PM	#82
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Gandalf... I think so! I've always had a thing for the older man. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

06-05-2002, 08:48 PM	#83
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	Umm Ok, but Gandalf is about 2000 years old. (I know he's probably older than that, but I won't go into that here). You must really like them old. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

06-05-2002, 09:20 PM	#85
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	oh and when melian made her prediction did she know beren ? no. had men even came from the east yet? thats like glorfindels prediction. (yea yea i know melian was a maiar but still!) __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-05-2002, 09:53 PM	#86
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Tar-Elendil, the 'not by the hand of man will fall' may have been said that way to throw the Witch King off, thinking he had nothing to fear from the race of men, when it was actually saying he wouldn't be killed by a 'male'. A strike to the back of the knee would not kill someone. I don't doubt Eowyn would have been unable to kill him if it hadn't been for Merry, though. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

06-05-2002, 10:03 PM	#88
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	True, true. Well, in a way they DID both kill him, but Eowyn, IMO, gave the final and 'fatal' blow. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

06-07-2002, 10:58 PM	#90
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Everyone knows you had it right -- Eowyn killed the witch-king, but would prob not have had the chance w/out the aid of Merry. Meryy did not kill him.

06-07-2002, 11:32 PM	#92
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Sounds good to me!

06-08-2002, 12:03 AM	#93
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	toothipck? The only women in combat through the entire trilogy, battling the second more powerful evil dude and you stick her with a toothpick? Actually, I agree it was a team effort, even though the death blow is not made explicitly clear. Truth is, I want to keep this circular, tit-for-tat thread going on forever and ever. What can I say, I am a masochist. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

06-08-2002, 12:33 AM	#95
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	i am wondering if Eowyn's blow was pointless. mebbe it was the spells wound about the blade that did the Nazgul in. Or mebbe it just allowed eowyn to deal the death shot? It doesnt say anywhere(that uve found) what exactly happened. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-08-2002, 12:43 AM	#97
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	lol..definately not trying to steal her thunder if it was a man i would be saying the exact same thing.. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-08-2002, 01:03 AM	#98
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	I'd say it was a team effort, but Eowyn really "killed" him, because she dealt the death blow. And I would definitely not call it a 'toothpick of a shot.' It was with all her remaining strength that she hit him, after slaying his steed and having her arm broken. The spells on the Merry's blade may have weakened him, but I would give Eowyn more credit for actually killing him. I don't think the Witch King would have died if it were not for Eowyn. Not that she would have slain him without the help of Merry. I think the prophesy was inadvertantly about gender--I don't think Glorfindel knew what would happen, but I think the words were 'twisted' to mean that. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-08-2002, 01:05 AM	#99
Nienna Grey Enting Join Date: May 2002 Location: England Posts: 62	I've never wished there had been a woman in the Fellowship. To be honest, I've never really thought about that question before. I suppose it could have been interesting if there had been a female character although I don't see that it would have made the story better in any way. __________________ "Mornie Utúlië Believe and you will find your way"

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