Why terrorists attack America

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Osama bin Laden was (is?) a Saudi, and his concerns were pretty parochial as Valandil pointed out- Infidel troops on Saudi soil- it seems it took al-Zawahiri (an Egyptian) to get him to at least put some emphasis on Palestine and the wider picture.

Nice commentary GrayMouser... I would only qualify this part of it - in that I'm not so sure it was THAT much of an issue that Saudi Arabia was the homeland of Osama bin Laden... more that it is the home of Mecca and Medina... Islam's two holiest cities. It is forbidden for a non-Moslem to even be in Mecca (I believe great pains are even taken to prevent satellite orbital paths from flying over Mecca)... for our infidel troops to be stationed in the same country was seen by Moslem extremists as quite the affront to Islam.

[The Gaffer]

Very concise and informative, Graymouser. America gets it because of tall poppy syndrome.

It would also be worth pointing out (though I'm sure everyone knows it) that most Moslems think that Bin Laden is an extremist arsehole.

Given that, IMO, it follows that a state of conflict between the West and the Moslem world suits his purposes (which would start with winning the rest of the Moslem world over to his way of thinking). Hence my belief that the "war" on terror and Iraq war have simply played into his hands.

I can see that, in theory, installing democracies throughout the Middle East would undermine (but not eliminate) such extremism. However, the key word there is "installing".

[Sween]

Just for the record JD it was you that gave McDonalds as an example not me i used Pepsi owing to the fact ive seen the way they advertise to the Arab market.

Jonathan if you really think that Osama Bin Lardin wants to make the whole world islamic by flying planes into buildings your an idiot. Osama is many things but unlike your goodself (on some occasions) is not an idiot far from it he is a very clever person who has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now.

Now before we get boged down in the argueements about the war etc i think we need to take a step back why did Al Queda attack on 9/11? As someone mentioned in the hope that US and other allie parties would withdraw troops from the middle east. Not one person in Al Queda i suspect though oh you know what if we crash these planes they are just gonna leave us alone. so that could not of been there motive.

A terrorist by nature (and name) is intrested in one thing in particular............terror. Now why do it? unlike there cultures we dont or at least didnt percicute other relgions islam is free to practice in this country as im sure you know well and support.

No the reason IMHO they hate us so much is that we are free and we do effect them. I suspect that our culture effects them much more than it effects our women havet taken to covering there faces now have they or are likely to. But our culture equality in the sexes, equality in the workplace, eqality in the workplace. But the thing i think worrys thems the most is the godlessness of our socity. I think that relgion and god are playing a much less important part in life today i see in kids today many schools in this country no longer do the lord prayer because of mixed race etc and relgious teachings are varied compared.

Now how is this shown by media and such like. If my local irish pub can pick up some Arab channel they can sure as hell get our channels.

The single biggest threat to terrorism is media beacuse by it and it alone can the people in the effected country see things for what they are not what they are told they are. Its what they fear and its why they attacked they are scared or at least were scared now they are laughing because again in my humble opinion many of the good of our nations have gone, we decided to ignor world opinon and our leaders ignored public opinion we are increasingly living in a right wing style of governence in the west and in a way they have allready won

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Given that, IMO, it follows that a state of conflict between the West and the Moslem world suits his purposes (which would start with winning the rest of the Moslem world over to his way of thinking). Hence my belief that the "war" on terror and Iraq war have simply played into his hands.

i disagree it plays right into his hands - that is why they are doing absolutely everything possible to try to prevent Iraq from becoming a Democracy. If it was playing right into their hands - they wouldn't be resorting to killing innocent iraqis. They aren't bombing US Military anymore their - they are going after the public. They thought we would turn tail and run like we repeatedly did under the Clinton adminstration when a couple of our troops were killed - they didn't realize we actually have a backbone and aren't going anywhere.

Having said that - if you think that we are playing right into their hands with the War on Terror - what do you suggest? Just letting them go about their business?

I can see that, in theory, installing democracies throughout the Middle East would undermine (but not eliminate) such extremism. However, the key word there is "installing".

We aren't "installing" we are helping them DEVELOP one. The majority of iraqis want democracy - we aren't really forcing it on them - although it is true that nothing else would have bee acceptable to us. We aren't anymore installing their government anymore than we did in Germany and Japan - (especially Japan - since they didn't have a democracy at all prior to World War II). Would you suggest that it was wrong for us to develop Germany and japan into democracies and develop their governments?

We are working with Iraqis to develop a democracy. You seem to think that we are dictating to them. It is true in some things we are though - such as womens rights and 25% of the cabinet must be women. I'm sure they don't like that - at least the religious fanatics like bin Ladin.

We're not going to go about doing things - just to please terrorists. Just becuase they may have some backlash to what we do. That's like saying during World War II that we shouldn't attack Normandy because the German's might get mad. I find it funny how many people here act like we shouldn't do anything because it might piss off the terrorists. The terrorists are going to attack regardless of what we do, they will find any excuse they can possibly use. The terrorists should NOT be dictating what we do, our goal is to eliminate them - and whatever it takes we will do this, just as we defeated Hitler - we will defeat the extremist fanatical muslim terrorists and all that support them.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Just for the record JD it was you that gave McDonalds as an example not me i used Pepsi owing to the fact ive seen the way they advertise to the Arab market.

McDonalds has the same meaning as pepsi and coke. You said about American companies going into countries and advertising. Did you not?

Jonathan if you really think that Osama Bin Lardin wants to make the whole world islamic by flying planes into buildings your an idiot. Osama is many things but unlike your goodself (on some occasions) is not an idiot far from it he is a very clever person who has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now.

Obviously you choose to ignore bin ladins statements - he has repeatedly stated his goal is to make the world Muslim and nothing short of the destruction of the western world is acceptable.

Now before we get boged down in the argueements about the war etc i think we need to take a step back why did Al Queda attack on 9/11? As someone mentioned in the hope that US and other allie parties would withdraw troops from the middle east. Not one person in Al Queda i suspect though oh you know what if we crash these planes they are just gonna leave us alone. so that could not of been there motive.

That was one of bin Ladin's stated goals in his tapes. So he's either a liar - which he partly is because he will use anything condone his attacks or that is truly the reason for him flying planes into the WTC as he has stated.

A terrorist by nature (and name) is intrested in one thing in particular............terror. Now why do it? unlike there cultures we dont or at least didnt percicute other relgions islam is free to practice in this country as im sure you know well and support.

As they are here - but I would like to know why they are often go to Europe as "normal muslims" and beomce fanaticalized in Europe? Particularly central Europe. This has been determined is what happened to a large number of terrorists.

No the reason IMHO they hate us so much is that we are free and we do effect them. I suspect that our culture effects them much more than it effects our women havet taken to covering there faces now have they or are likely to. But our culture equality in the sexes, equality in the workplace, eqality in the workplace. But the thing i think worrys thems the most is the godlessness of our socity. I think that relgion and god are playing a much less important part in life today i see in kids today many schools in this country no longer do the lord prayer because of mixed race etc and relgious teachings are varied compared.

Then why pick on the US - we are far more religious than Europe is. it's one of the reasons Europe has such distain and mocks the US. Europe cringes when Religion is mentioned in the US. Far more people in the US go to chruch and pray than in Europe.

I agree that it is the fact that our culture has something to do with it - if you look in my past posts on past threads - you will see that I repeatedly stated this. I have even said to people on here - that if we don't fight terrorism - I hope women like to be covered - because that is the goal of bin Ladin.

bin Ladin's goal is to make the world Muslim - that is his goal. The destruction of the west. In order to destroy the west - he has to destroy the greatest country that makes up the west and that is the US. That is why he attacks us. it has nothing to do with him hating us - it has to do with him hating the west and all non-muslims and muslims who do not believe as he does.

Now how is this shown by media and such like. If my local irish pub can pick up some Arab channel they can sure as hell get our channels.

So - what do you suggest then? That we dismantle our broadcasting companies? our internet? What do you suggest?

The single biggest threat to terrorism is media beacuse by it and it alone can the people in the effected country see things for what they are not what they are told they are. Its what they fear and its why they attacked they are scared or at least were scared now they are laughing because again in my humble opinion many of the good of our nations have gone, we decided to ignor world opinon and our leaders ignored public opinion we are increasingly living in a right wing style of governence in the west and in a way they have allready won

Oh - so you think that just doing what the terrorist want us to do - they'll leave us alone. I suggest you stop drinking - because bin Ladin doesn't like that. I hope your wife wears a headscarf and is covered - because he doesn't like that she isn't. You had sex out of marriage - so you are already doomed. I suggest you become muslim and believe as he does - because he doesn't like you if you don't.

You have a very narrow view of the issue, of what bin Ladin wants and what his goal is it seems. You seem to think that unless we change - they win. I say it's the opposite. Why should I change what kind of music I listen to? Why should I change what I do?

By the way - World Opinion is appeasement - and appeasement NEVER works. Appeasement is like sticking your head in the ground and hoping the problem goes away. The west did this for decades. 9/11 was planned out in 1995 - 6 YEARS before the attack. Clinton was too much of a wimp to do anything against bin Ladin - he kept going with the polls. We started going after bin ladin and the world got upset - saying "he's just a man in a cave". We had a chance to go after him prior to 9/11 - and we didn't do it - instead Clinton cut back on the intelligence agencies and so forth and now we have to play catch-up. This is why it is taking 3 years to catch bin Ladin - not to mention he is hiding in a mountain range the size of the Rockie Mountains. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

The problem isn't going after the terrorists and changing the Middle East - the problem is people thinking that we shouldn't do anything because if we do do anything - we are playing into what they want. Bin Ladin counted on the US turning tail and running - and we aren't. He is NOT laughing.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by Sween
Jonathan if you really think that Osama Bin Lardin wants to make the whole world islamic by flying planes into buildings your an idiot. Osama is many things but unlike your goodself (on some occasions) is not an idiot far from it he is a very clever person who has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now.

Then I'm glad to inform you that I'm not an idiot. I have never said anything like that - if I have, you are welcome to quote me. What I've said though is that Osama and al Qaeda don't attack Americans and their allies because of compassion with the Palestines or whoever. They do it because they hate Americans and the rest of the western world (Taliban: "America & the western world = same crap, different name). Now the hatred for America has likely started due to the US's friendship with Israel, the American influence in the Saudi royal family and any other American involvement in the Middle East. But really, the hatred is now deeply rooted in the islamists, now they hate America like Christians hate Satan. It doesn't matter what the US does, the islamists will continue to hate the country. The hate doesn't need any reasons any longer.

Osama isn't an idiot. Not because he "has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now" but because he knows how to hurt the US badly. Al Qaeda doesn't send planes into buildings "to make the whole world islamic" or to send the message to the Americans to get the heck out of the Middle East. Al Qaeda does it to hurt America. If the Americans due to terror attacks are divided as to whether they should withdraw from the Middle East or continue to support Israel and rebuild Iraq, al Qaeda has achieved something. Of course they would be glad if the US actually left the Middle East, but their main goal would be to eradicate America from the face of the earth.

Just listen to the al Qaeda tapes and their propaganda. Kicking the US out from the Middle East is not enough, they want to kill as many Americans as possible because they hate them and will always do.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Osama isn't an idiot. Not because he "has manged to escape the US for allmost 3 years now" but because he knows how to hurt the US badly. Al Qaeda doesn't send planes into buildings "to make the whole world islamic" or to send the message to the Americans to get the heck out of the Middle East.

I disagree. He made statements several times that his goal is to make the world his type of muslim. He doesn't only hate the US - he hates the western world and he even hates Muslims who don't follow his style of Muslim. He wants all these people eraticated.

Al Qaeda does it to hurt America. If the Americans due to terror attacks are divided as to whether they should withdraw from the Middle East or continue to support Israel and rebuild Iraq, al Qaeda has achieved something. Of course they would be glad if the US actually left the Middle East, but their main goal would be to eradicate America from the face of the earth.

Just listen to the al Qaeda tapes and their propaganda. Kicking the US out from the Middle East is not enough, they want to kill as many Americans as possible because they hate them and will always do.

Here I disagree again. It isn't just about America or destroying America. America is just the heart of the Western World and they are striking at the heart in order to weaken all the other countries. There belief is that - after the US falls - the rest of the countries will follow.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I disagree. He made statements several times that his goal is to make the world his type of muslim. He doesn't only hate the US - he hates the western world and he even hates Muslims who don't follow his style of Muslim. he wants all these people erraticated.

I believe that is a dream of his, to make the world muslim. But his main goal must be to kill his sworn enemy, namely the US (and as I said in my previous post, the US and the western world are sort of the same thing to the islamists. If they hate the US, they hate the rest of the western world too). Osama wants the US eradicated before he tries to make his "pan-islamic" dreams come true. In a war, you destroy your enemy first. Then you rebuild (or makes the world muslim in this case).
Btw, I really have my doubts about the authenticity of Osama's faith. I don't think he blows American buildings up because it's God's will, but because of his personal dislike of the western world.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Here I disagree again. It isn't just about America or distroying America. America is just the heart of the Western World and they are striking at the heart in order to weaken all the other countries. There belief is that - after the US falls - the rest of the countries will follow.

As I said, the US represents the western world so of course they're not only against the US but many other countries as well.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I believe that is a dream of his, to make the world muslim. But his main goal must be to kill his sworn enemy, namely the US (and as I said in my previous post, the US and the western world are sort of the same thing to the islamists. If they hate the US, they hate the rest of the western world too). Osama wants the US eradicated before he tries to make his "pan-islamic" dreams come true. In a war, you destroy your enemy first. Then you rebuild (or makes the world muslim in this case).

I agree - but i think the hate is for the whole western World - it's just that the US is the heart of what he hates. We are looking at it from two different ways.

Btw, I really have my doubts about the authenticity of Osama's faith. I don't think he blows American buildings up because it's God's will, but because of his personal dislike of the western world.

I also question his beliefs. i think he is power hungry and uses religion for his own aims. Although 0 hsi past history shows that he had a "religious awakening". His family has stated that when he was younger he was into drinking and partying and everything. Then he met Ayman al-Zawahiri and his opinions changed. he changed his opinion on women, on head scarf and on what a "good" muslim was. So I think that maybve it was about religion - but now it is about power - just like all the religious clerics in Iran and the many throughout the Middle East who cling to power.

As I said, the US represents the western world so of course they're not only against the US but many other countries as well.

yes - I just think that it is the Western World he hates - not just America. I think this is where much of the world is blind. They want to think that this is an American problem - that as long as they don't support us - they are safe. This belief is what is playing into bin Ladin's hands - not the US fighting back.

There was a thing on yesterday aobut a poll of Europeans - the majority think that we are over reacting to terrorism. I disagree - I think they are under reacting - just like the did with Hitler.

[Sween]

I dont think we are under reacting to terrorisim at all i just dont think we go on about it as much due to experience. In this country we have had a lot of organised terrorism in the past 30 years or so (The IRA and such like) we know that it just doesnt do any good going on about so if we do seem a bit passa about im sorry.

This thread is about why they didnt like america pre 9/11 so i will make this breif as its off topic but how has 'the war on terrorism helped' terrorism cannot be fought really its down to personal choice if i decided to kill someone i could its that simple. I could easily make a bomb, i could easily take that bomb into a crowed area and set it off with or without me.

As our officials said recentally sooner or later an attack will get passed but we are doing everything we can to stop it.

I agree that the US was a particular target. I mean its the self styled 'land of the free' its everything they hate. You were bound to be no.1 on the hitlist. But also a point that is often overlooked (allthough not often by JD it has to be said) they attacked the world trade centres, thats world and trade possiably the most potent symbols of the west.

But as for his desire to turn everyone muslim and his type of muslim i cannot for a second believe thats his aim (that mite be his justification, two very diffrent things) i mean its like my desire to be adored by every woman that walks this earth and have my pick of them good pipe dream but it aint never gonna happen he cannot achive that im sure he knows it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
I dont think we are under reacting to terrorisim at all i just dont think we go on about it as much due to experience. In this country we have had a lot of organised terrorism in the past 30 years or so (The IRA and such like) we know that it just doesnt do any good going on about so if we do seem a bit passa about im sorry.

Sorry - but the IRA is small potatoes and that is result to the occupation of Northern Ireland. IRA isn't trying to destroy England - it just wants Northern Ireland to be part of Ireland and free from English imperialism.

This thread is about why they didnt like america pre 9/11 so i will make this breif as its off topic but how has 'the war on terrorism helped' terrorism cannot be fought really its down to personal choice if i decided to kill someone i could its that simple. I could easily make a bomb, i could easily take that bomb into a crowed area and set it off with or without me.

Al Qaeda is an organized military terrorist group - along with many other terrorist groups. It isn't just some lone person blowing themselves up. They have training camps, they have basically armies of people all over the world, allies and so forth throughout the world to carry out attacks. The IRA was against YOU - not against the world, not against all the West. Sorry - you can't see that. That is why Europe is underreacting. Becuase you look at it as "oh well - just like the IRA" - but it's not. And I have personal experience with the IRA - my father was going to Harrods when they placed a bomb there. My father was scheduled to be on Pan Am Flight 103 that was blown up by Libya. it's just lucky he ended up leaving a weak early from England and didn't go onto germany. Otherwise he would have been on that flight. Don't tell me that I have no been affected by terrorism. This terrorism is different then those and europe doesn't understand it yet - but then again - they didn't understand or want to understand Hitler either.

As our officials said recentally sooner or later an attack will get passed but we are doing everything we can to stop it.

You are in DEFENSE mode. How long do you think you can really be in defense mode against a group who wants to actually destroy you and your way of life. ASs I said - IRA just wants you out of Ireland - they're goal is not to destroy England.

I agree that the US was a particular target. I mean its the self styled 'land of the free' its everything they hate. You were bound to be no.1 on the hitlist. But also a point that is often overlooked (allthough not often by JD it has to be said) they attacked the world trade centres, thats world and trade possiably the most potent symbols of the west.

yes - the World Trade Center represented the economic strength of the West, and particularly America. The pentagon was an "accident" - it has been determined based on lfight path data that they were heading for the White House and the other plane was heading for Congress. They're goal was to destroy American - and then bring down the West.

But as for his desire to turn everyone muslim and his type of muslim i cannot for a second believe thats his aim (that mite be his justification, two very diffrent things) i mean its like my desire to be adored by every woman that walks this earth and have my pick of them good pipe dream but it aint never gonna happen he cannot achive that im sure he knows it.

It is his aim. Your argument against what he says his goal doesn't make any sense. Was Hitler's attempt at ruling the World and killing all the jews, gays and everyone else he didn't like any less ridiculouos? His goal of making the super race? Was that any more plausible?

I see that Europe has never learned from History - if many people in Europe feel the same way as you do - that we really shouldn't worry about bin Ladin because his stated goal of destroying the west and making everyone Muslim is a pipedream and isn't going to happen. The only way it isn't going to happen is if we actively fight them - not play defense for decades. Playing defense against bin Ladin and fanatical muslim terrorists whose stated goal is the overthrow of the west is a losing battle and Europe had better wake up to it.

[Dwarven Sen]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - but the IRA is small potatoes and that is result to the occupation of Northern Ireland. IRA isn't trying to destroy England - it just wants Northern Ireland to be part of Ireland and free from English imperialism.

You are in DEFENSE mode. How long do you think you can really be in defense mode against a group who wants to actually destroy you and your way of life. ASs I said - IRA just wants you out of Ireland - they're goal is not to destroy England.

what the IRA want is to hurt people. I'm offended that you think that my country and my home city got bombed because those monsters want something and are to petty to go through proper channels. if they want to be part of Eire then they should move house.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - but the IRA is small potatoes and that is result to the occupation of Northern Ireland. IRA isn't trying to destroy England - it just wants Northern Ireland to be part of Ireland and free from English imperialism.

Just bye the bye, Mr Jersydevil, what do you know about the problems in Belfast and alike? Of course New Jersey is a hive of terrorist activity...

My family is Catholic, and from North Ireland.

We have been suffering murders and bombings in the streets for over 40 years. Terror is nothing new.

I have never assumed or even implied that the s/11 attacks were justified. I hate terror, and I have told you so, in previous posts.

All I ever contended was that there was a reason for the increased attacks on the US. This is all I wish to debate.

And if you cannot argue this point without emotion, and cease to argue points of which you have no knowledge, then I suggest you cease to argue.

[Beor]

Did you actually want to debate with anyone, or are you just playing the devil's advocate?

EDIT: Now ten minutes later, still waiting, dude.

2nd EDIT: whoops, 5 minutes, watch is a little fast.

[jerseydevil]

So you're back. 5 posts you have and only in your thread. Amazing

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Just bye the bye, Mr Jersydevil, what do you know about the problems in Belfast and alike? Of course New Jersey is a hive of terrorist activity...

My family is Catholic, and from North Ireland.

We have been suffering murders and bombings in the streets for over 40 years. Terror is nothing new.

No - it's not anything new. EXCEPT for this kind of terror - and that is what YOU and Europe refuse to understand. You want to think of it as just like the IRA. Does the IRA want the destruction of England? Does ETA want the destruction of Spain?

I have never assumed or even implied that the s/11 attacks were justified. I hate terror, and I have told you so, in previous posts.

yeah - you did - along with your contempt for America too.

All I ever contended was that there was a reason for the increased attacks on the US. This is all I wish to debate.

Under a name other than your usual name on entmoot obviously. Why come to a tolkien board to only discuss this one subject?

And if you cannot argue this point without emotion, and cease to argue points of which you have no knowledge, then I suggest you cease to argue.

I have greater knowledge than you know. You are the one that lacks the knowledge. You haven't said one single thing regarding anything of importance since I came back - other than to try making swipes at me. Now you tell that I have no knowledge of other parts of the world and that I should cease to be arguing if I can't do it without emotion. What are my posts too much for you?

As has been stated the terrorist attacks are NOT against America - they are against the WEST. America is just the heart of the west that they are trying to destroy. You want to ignore this fact - as does most of Europe.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Beor
Did you actually want to debate with anyone, or are you just playing the devil's advocate?

EDIT: Now ten minutes later, still waiting, dude.

Don't worry - i'm pretty sure they are another user entmoot - that is only using this name to talk about this.

They don't want debate - all they want to know is why everyone attacks america - which isn't the case and their post in the beginning are absolutely ridiculous when they stated all the countries that supposedly hate the US. Talk about someone who doesn't know anything - as he tried to claim about me.

[Dwarven Sen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
[B]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - but the IRA is small potatoes and that is result to the occupation of Northern Ireland. IRA isn't trying to destroy England - it just wants Northern Ireland to be part of Ireland and free from English imperialism.


Just bye the bye, Mr Jersydevil, what do you know about the problems in Belfast and alike? Of course New Jersey is a hive of terrorist activity...

My family is Catholic, and from North Ireland.

We have been suffering murders and bombings in the streets for over 40 years. Terror is nothing new.

I have never assumed or even implied that the s/11 attacks were justified. I hate terror, and I have told you so, in previous posts.

All I ever contended was that there was a reason for the increased attacks on the US. This is all I wish to debate.

And if you cannot argue this point without emotion, and cease to argue points of which you have no knowledge, then I suggest you cease to argue.

who was that? now I'm confused.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Well, the Devils Advocate is one of the ways they choose Saints... Though I am sure you know that Beor!

I still stand by my claim. And all the crying beard tearing that has come to pass is not valid response.

The US has played the policeman for the past 50 years, 50 years in which, bye the bye, Europe has fallen away. The US has tried to overthrow some governments, imposed sanctions on others, and generally tried to run the world their way.

THIS POINT IS FOR JERSEYDEVEL:
And good for them. For surely it is every own country’s own prerogative to try to fashion the world in their own best interest?

This point I do not dispute.

My argument is, and has been, that if America assumes this (above) posture, which it has on numerous occasions, surely it cannot wonder how it is the subject of terrorism from the third world?

For what you see as your interest, surely countries, in which you are playing god, will not see it that way. Surely England around 1776 thought the same way you thought now…

Those that America has not actively tried to subvert are afraid of that very thing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dwarven Sen
what the IRA want is to hurt people. I'm offended that you think that my country and my home city got bombed because those monsters want something and are to petty to go through proper channels. if they want to be part of Eire then they should move house.

Yeah - well maybe England should give up northern Ireland. That is what most of Europe says that Israel should do for the Palestinians. They might not be exactly the same - the similarities are rather striking. it's no secret that most of Europe side with the palestinians - and even to some extent condone the Palestinian bombings as the only resort. I guess it isn't viewed that way when the shoe is on the other foot though.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Well, the Devils Advocate is one of the ways they choose Saints... Though I am sure you know that Beor!

I still stand by my claim. And all the crying beard tearing that has come to pass is not valid response.

The US has played the policeman for the past 50 years, 50 years in which, bye the bye, Europe has fallen away. The US has tried to overthrow some governments, imposed sanctions on others, and generally tried to run the world their way.

THIS POINT IS FOR JERSEYDEVEL:
And good for them. For surely it is every own country’s own prerogative to try to fashion the world in their own best interest?

This point I do not dispute.

My argument is, and has been, that if America assumes this (above) posture, which it has on numerous occasions, surely it cannot wonder how it is the subject of terrorism from the third world?

For what you see as your interest, surely countries, in which you are playing god, will not see it that way. Surely England around 1776 thought the same way you thought now…

Those that America has not actively tried to subvert are afraid of that very thing.

You know what - if it wasn't for America - Europe and the rest of the world would either be controlled by nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. As for dictating the world - Europe had been doing that for centuries and still does. Look at the posture of france and Germany trying to wrestle control of the EU. We do not take over countries - UNLIKE the countries of Europe have for 100's of years.

As for 1776 - the colonies tried to work things out with England - they refused. It was independence - not the otherthrow of britain we were after. We were fighting for the same freedoms and rights of every "britain" - except britain didn't consider the colonists british. This was made very clear to Ben Franklin - that is why he went from a loyal subject to a revolutionary over night. Maybe you should read some history.