Fox Hunting

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Coney II
Then you'll be delighted to know that I'm gonna get fully edumacated in the wonerous ways of the US when I visit friends in late/early winter '04-'05 (there is even a possiblility I'll be staying for a while in beloved NJ!)

I'm glad you'll be coming to visit the US. I hope you get a good impression of us here. You should see Texas though, it's very beautiful.

[Ruinel]

My last dog (she's dead now) caught a cat that had mistakenly intruded into my back yard once. She didn't kill it with a quick nip to the back of the neck. She bit it on the back of the neck and then shook it while it cried out in pain... I heard it all the way upstairs, but I didn't get to it in time to save it. Giz had broken it's neck and it laid helpless on the ground until fluid seemed out of it's ears and it died. Probably it's brain swelled from the shaking. It was pretty guesome.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
When was the last time you had your neck broken, jersydevil?

Seriously- it's actually very hard to get the clean break required for a quick, painless kill. And a partial severing of the spinal cord is excruciating (at least as I understand it from people who've had neck injuries of that sort)

Honestly, though. At least in my neck of the woods we eat what we kill, or at least /somebody/ does. There are certainly a lot of people that kill for sport, but they have the decency to make sure the meat gets used.

Good points.

Bah. I think it's pathetic. They run around jabbering about how much fun it is to kill something, when they don't even have the guts to do it themselves. I say we take the whole lot of them and stick them in a gladitorial arena. Let them have their fun killing each other off.

Where can I get a ticket?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Now, ratting was done for entertainment and pleasure... which would be considered a bloodsport. But killing a rat that was a pest in your home or farm, is not considered a bloodsport because you are doing so in the quickest and most efficient manner possible. And it is not for your pleasure or entertainment, I hope.

And then there are dog fights and rooster fights where the roosters get equiped with steel spores to tear into another all the more gruesome. Both games are often to the death of one of the contestants. Both are banned here but then a few months ago there came a report that some people go over the border into France where it isn't banned to get these appaling kicks.

Humanity, you've let me down once more. But I'm getting used to it by now. Why, oh why don't you even try to at least act civilised?

Originally posted by Ruinel
[...]She didn't kill it with a quick nip to the back of the neck. She bit it on the back of the neck and then shook it while it cried out in pain... [...]

I always thought that's the way dogs normally kill their prey. One of our cats was rescued from the mouth of a big dog as a kitten and was spared that fate. It was before we got her from the shelter. Needless to say she's been traumatised and prone to panic ever since.

To kill a quarry with a simple bite in the back of the neck requires much skill, practise and a very strong jaw. If I'm not mistaken, not many predators can even do that. Most large felines choke their prey to death.

I'm not saying you won't be able to train a dog to kill the fox like that but I doubt most hunting hounds have had that special training. Nor do I deem it logical that a pack of hounds, trained to hunt, track and kill, would stand back and let one dog do the clean kill without interference of guidance from a human handler.

[Wayfarer]

Actually, it was at least my understanding that most natural predators in the wild kill as stated before- with an efficient bite to the back of the neck.

However, this is a learned behavior (animals are taught, generally by their mother) and the domesticated breeds have somehow lost the knack. Which is why dogs shake and tear animals, and why cats often 'play' with their food- it's because they've caught the darn thing but don't know how to kill it.

[Earniel]

You could be right, Wayfarer. But all large predators I can think of right now seem to choke their prey. I can only seem remember tigers to break necks. Still, I could be wrong though.

On cats, I believe their playing with preys is also deemed as practise for their reflexes and speed.

[Ruinel]

Dogs hunt in packs. They all participate in the kill. That's part of their instinct.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Bah. I think it's pathetic. They run around jabbering about how much fun it is to kill something, when they don't even have the guts to do it themselves. I say we take the whole lot of them and stick them in a gladitorial arena. Let them have their fun killing each other off.

LOL. Nice image. Though actually I'm sure these types wouldn't shirk from offing animals given the chance.

A few comments: foxes are not a pest in the UK. Even if they were, it woud make much more sense to use a gun than a pack of hounds and braying Hooray Henries who actually catch the fox less than half the time. So, "pest control" is a specious defense.

Also, I completely distrust the claim that banning foxhunting would ruin the rural economy. You can hardly class it as a productive economic activity in its own right (unless there's some black market I've never heard of where you can flog your dead fox for 50 grand): people do it (and pay for its upkeep) because they like doing it, like yachting. Why not carry on riding, even with packs of dogs, but without the killing?

That said, I agree that it's a bit odd that just because foxes are fluffy (and a bit like dogs) we seem to think that they have more rights than, say, pheasants or salmon, which are killed for fun by all sorts of people on a daily basis.

So, why are foxes special? Should we ban fishing too? Is there a thing about the "skills of the hunter" that we, as humans, should be able to practice?

[Spock]

Here the have organized fox hunts in late September, early October, however, they don't kill or injure the animal merely find it.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
That said, I agree that it's a bit odd that just because foxes are fluffy (and a bit like dogs) we seem to think that they have more rights than, say, pheasants or salmon, which are killed for fun by all sorts of people on a daily basis.

So, why are foxes special? Should we ban fishing too? Is there a thing about the "skills of the hunter" that we, as humans, should be able to practice?

Well, for one thing there's more fish than fox in the world. For another, I believe foxes are smarter and also reminds us more of the animals we have managed to tame (dogs, cats) so naturally we feel we have more in common with foxes (fish are, after all, just very stupid animals that live under water).

[Spock]

Did you ever think that when a fish is caught, it's like an alien abduction?
If you throw him back he'll say "I saw a bright light and was lifted up and then there were these strange looking creatures".

[Artanis]

We do eat the fish, don't we? Hunting and fishing is fine with me, as long as the meat is utilised.

About the way of killing: I do not believe natural predators always use a clean and fast way of killing its prey. Nature can be 'cruel'. There's no reason why a predator should be concerned about their prey being killed fast, other than preventing it to escape, which often can be achieved in other ways than instant killing. But that doesn't mean we as humans shouldn't strive to kill our preys as effective as possible.

[Hemel]

That said, I agree that it's a bit odd that just because foxes are fluffy (and a bit like dogs) we seem to think that they have more rights than, say, pheasants or salmon, which are killed for fun by all sorts of people on a daily basis.

How many pheasants and salmon are chased by dogs?

But seriously, I REALLY can't understand why all these people who like foxhunting can't get the same pleasures from drag-hunting. If the rural economy is a problem - well, drag-hunting surely solves that too, because it needs hounds and people to look after them.

For pheasants and salmon and the like, well, I'm afraid I'm not terribly happy about blood sports in general. The only thing I think is acceptable is if one is shooting, and can guarantee a clean kill. But otherwise ... well, clay pigeon shooting could be a substitute for pheasants, surely, though I assume we'd have to come up with something else to satisfy the salmon hunters. How's about maybe, two salmon-hunters, one on either bank, with their hooks entangled ... they could play one another, and may the better one win and not get the ducking

For fox hunting and fishing though, this does bring up another issue and that is that keen anglers are very wary about moves to ban fox hunting, because they think their sport will come next for a ban. They try to claim that it's thanks to them that many stretches of waterway are well cared for and preserved. I suppose my answer to that one is - well, come and help preserve our canals ... and recover the ones that have been lost!

[Spock]

gee, makes me think I should go hunt radishes

[Spock]

ok, before I get jumped on, I only troll the frozen food section of my local supermarkets and occasionally hunt in the meat counter.

[The Gaffer]

He he. I like the idea of an alien-abduction fish. I bet all the other fish slag it off and say "yea, yea, pull the other one".

An animal is, I would guess, indifferent to whether it is killed for dinner, for population control or for fun. The difference would be OUR morality. I can see that you could argue that fishing is an ancient skill which can be used to catch your dinner, and lots of anglers do eat what they catch, or put it back.

(Though this reminds me of that scene in Restaurant at the End of the Universe where the cows can speak and have been bred to want to be eaten by the diners. "Let's meet the meat.")

I agree re: drag-hunting Hemel.

[Spock]

....oh and my towel is in the wash, drat.

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by Coney II
Then you'll be delighted to know that I'm gonna get fully edumacated in the wonerous ways of the US when I visit friends in late/early winter '04-'05 (there is even a possiblility I'll be staying for a while in beloved NJ!)

Yer not going to pay a visit to a certain mutual friend are you? And btw - you still coming to Mardis Gras with me?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'm glad you'll be coming to visit the US. I hope you get a good impression of us here. You should see Texas though, it's very beautiful.

As if New Jersey or the northeast isn't?

[Spock]

I agree with J.D. as long as you stay away from Newark the state is quite nice (oh and the refineries)

Besides, Texas is a whole country unto itself and you'll never see it all.