02-17-2005, 04:22 PM | #81 | ||||
Elven Warrior
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Also note the use of the word "epidemiologic" made to lend credence that homosexuality is an illness. Actually these studies are not epidemiologic in this sense of the word. The interpretation that this author gives of the elimination of homosexuality from the list of pathologies is highly tendentious. For instance it is extremely well known that Kinsey's report did not use the best statistical methodology; that does not mean that it is completely wrong or unscientific. It was the best scientific evidence available at the time, now we have better evidence; some of the statistical shortcomings have been fixed in subsequent studies (e.g. the aformentioned National Health and Social Life Survey) Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 02-18-2005 at 11:45 AM. |
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02-17-2005, 04:32 PM | #82 | |
Elven Warrior
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EDIT: ooooh, but now I see that this guy is (or was) a NARTH fellow. That explains many things. Next time somebody posts something from NARTH please let me know in the title, so I save time by not reading it Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 02-17-2005 at 05:29 PM. |
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02-17-2005, 04:51 PM | #83 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-17-2005, 05:00 PM | #84 | |||
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In the interest of my blood pressure, I'm just going to make one comment on this interview.
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("Lifetime" implies about a 70 year time period to me.)
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02-17-2005, 05:54 PM | #85 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Communication is frustrating sometimes, innit?!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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02-17-2005, 06:10 PM | #86 |
Hobbit
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having the words taken out of the title of the program kinda seems....rediculous....
i think i read somewhere that the suicide rate among homosexual male teens is three times as high as a normal male teen rate... studys can be done on this...but i think that it is the way that society and people treat them that cause it (i kinda feel like im stating the obvious) |
02-18-2005, 05:23 AM | #87 | |
Elf Lord
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My experience of these copy-and-paste jobs is that if you take the trouble of examining them carefully and responding to the "arguments", as you have done very effectively above, you will get no response. My conclusion has been that the purpose behind posting these articles is not to engage in debate but to disseminate dogma. EDIT: Apologies for above rant... Trying to be a bit more constructive, why do we care what the "cause" of homosexuality is? The more I hear of arguments either way (nature or nurture) the more I think that the whole thing is a political Trojan horse to characterise homosexuality as some sort of disorder. If we think it's genetic, we can feel sorry for gays because they can't help it, suffering as they do from an inherited disorder. If only we had genetic screening we could save them the trauma of existence. If we think it's environmental then the implication is that we can view them as suffering from a mental disorder which just requires the right sort of cure. Both of these are disgusting to me. The key issue is equality. People with all sorts of sexual orientations are equally valuable parts of society and should be accorded the same status. The fact that they aren't means that we should focus on challenging the stigma, not on changing their behaviour. Indeed, diversity is a good thing and should be celebrated. It's a shame that some people are unable to see this; it's their loss. Last edited by The Gaffer : 02-18-2005 at 07:39 AM. |
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02-18-2005, 10:26 AM | #88 |
Elf Lord
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Or you can just scan for persons' titles and avoid other viewpoints. In my case, I actually like to see stuff from LAMBDA and pro-gay organizations granting them an opportunity, but hey, we all have our options!
New Genetics Study Undermines Gay Gene Theory By Warren Throckmorton, Ph.D., & Durwood Ray, Ph.D. 2/10/2005 Even the author's "strongest finding" was not statistically significant. A study to be published in the March 2005 issue of the journal Human Genetics, and available online now, actually undermines the commonly held view that homosexual orientation is determined by genetic factors. The study's lead author, Brian Mustanski from the University of Illinois at Chicago, said in a news release: "There is no one 'gay' gene. Sexual orientation is a complex trait, so it's not surprising that we found several DNA regions involved in its expression." However, a thorough examination of the actual report reveals no statistically significant findings for any of these DNA regions. The authors describe in the article three non-X chromosomal "new regions of genetic interest" (7q36, 8p12, and 10q26). In the authors' view, a noteworthy aspect of the study is as follows: "Our strongest finding was on 7q36 with a combined mlod score of 3.45 and equal distribution from maternal and paternal allele transmission. This score falls just short of Lander and Kruglyak's (1995) criteria for genomewide significance." They go on to say "two additional regions (8p12 and 10q26) approached the criteria for suggestive linkage"ÂŻagain pointing out that neither was statistically significant. Thus, even the author's "strongest finding" was not statistically significant by widely accepted scientific criteria. The study also re-examined potential genetic contributions on the X chromosome from region Xq28. This is the region first identified by Dean Hamer as associated with homosexual orientation. However, this study re-analysis, to quote the authors, "did not find linkage to Xq28 in the full sample." The regions hypothesized as relating to sexual orientation by the research team appear to relate to developmental precursors to temperamental factors that have been associated with environmental theories of same-sex attractions. For instance, one region identified is associated with hormones that impact sexual development. Another is linked to hemispheric development in the brain. Such genes may impact the temperamental traits of activity level and aggressiveness. Lower preferences for aggressive activities have been linked to the development of same-sex attractions in men. However, currently there is no research evidence in the Mustanski study or any other of a direct pathway from genes to sexual attractions that does not involve environment interacting with individual temperamental differences. Consistent with an environmental explanation of same-sex attraction is the work of Daryl Bem. In a 2000 study, Dr. Bem demonstrated that there is no relationship between genotype and sexual orientation in men unless environmental interaction with the temperamental trait of gender nonconformity is taken in account. In other words, exploring individual temperamental factors lived out within certain environments may provide more precise areas for research into the action of potential genetic factors in the development of sexual attractions. In summary, the Mustanski study finds no significant relationship between DNA regions and self-reported sexual orientation. Available evidence suggests that genes may be expressed via the interaction of temperament with certain environments. Practically, then, at present, one cannot know with any degree of certainty that a gene or combination of genes will distinguish why one man is homosexual and another is not. To learn more on the claim that homosexuality is genetic, read Concerned Women for America's paper, Born or Bred: Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality is Genetic by Robert Knight. Click here. Warren Throckmorton, Ph.D., is associate professor of psychology and Durwood Ray, Ph.D. is professor of biology at Grove City College (Pennsylvania). References: Bem, D.J. (2000). "Exotic Becomes Erotic: Interpreting the Biological Correlates of Sexual Orientation." Archives of Sexual Behavior , 29, 531-548. Mustanski, B.S., DuPree, M.G., Nievergelt, C.M., Bocklandt, S., Schork, N.J. & Hamer, D.H. (2005). "A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation." Human Genetics, http://mypage.iu.edu/~bmustans/Mustanski_etal_2005.pdf. UIC News Release:
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-18-2005, 11:56 AM | #89 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
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er, you've already posted that one;
Trying to be a bit more constructive, why do we care what the "cause" of homosexuality is? The more I hear of arguments either way (nature or nurture) the more I think that the whole thing is a political Trojan horse to characterise homosexuality as some sort of disorder. If we think it's genetic, we can feel sorry for gays because they can't help it, suffering as they do from an inherited disorder. If only we had genetic screening we could save them the trauma of existence. If we think it's environmental then the implication is that we can view them as suffering from a mental disorder which just requires the right sort of cure. Both of these are disgusting to me. The key issue is equality. People with all sorts of sexual orientations are equally valuable parts of society and should be accorded the same status. The fact that they aren't means that we should focus on challenging the stigma, not on changing their behaviour. Indeed, diversity is a good thing and should be celebrated. It's a shame that some people are unable to see this; it's their loss. |
02-18-2005, 12:00 PM | #90 | ||
Elven Warrior
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I am avoiding to read NARTH stuff because everytime I read it in the past it was tearing truth to shreds. It is not even about viewpoint, it is offensive Quote:
Although I could answer much more, I think my original answer is quite illuminating. |
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02-18-2005, 02:52 PM | #91 | |
Quasi Evil
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Youll notice this pattern. I think the logic is why respond to a post that legitimately takes apart ones original post when you can just sit and bide your time and then just repost either the very same thing or a post with parallel ideology a little later. Id find it a lot more convicing if the refutations were commented on rather then just ignored wouldnt you?
But in the vien of reposting allow me to quote thyself from a month or so ago: Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-18-2005, 02:58 PM | #92 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-18-2005, 03:53 PM | #93 | ||||
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Gaffer, you rock. Well said! EDIT: It just had to be quoted.
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02-18-2005, 05:12 PM | #94 |
The Intermittent One
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yay! the rainbow warrior appears
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02-18-2005, 05:31 PM | #95 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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All "diversity" means in this context is "things that are different from how I do them or even would like for myself, but I still think they're fine", right? After all, you wouldn't celebrate things that are diverse but that you disapprove of, right? And if you blame others for not "celebrating" diversity they disapprove of, yet don't blame yourself, aren't you being inconsistent and unfair? I ask you as a friend to please think about what I said carefully.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 02-18-2005 at 05:33 PM. |
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02-18-2005, 06:05 PM | #96 |
Elf Lord
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I apologize for the repost. That was an error. I had meant to repost the one that was taken off the JD thread . Mea culpa.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/m...p?storyid=2073 One of those busy days and distractions....
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-18-2005 at 06:09 PM. |
02-19-2005, 07:09 AM | #97 | |
Elf Lord
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Just to be clear, I don't "blame" anyone for not celebrating the love of gay people; I heartily disagree with them, feel sorry for them and think they're missing out. They're also, IMO, however unconsciously, contributing towards the needless prejudice that gays experience each and every day. The "cause" issue is a problem only for the Church, presumably because if it's innate, then it must have been put there by God. Hence religious groups have a political interest in "disproving" a genetic cause. As I said above, I think that one of the consequences of that debate is to further entrench the "homosexuality as disorder" assumption, which I reject. I hope that clarifies things a bit. I should also add that I even value the diversity of opposing views, particularly when, as in your case, they are presented honestly and in a friendly manner. In this way we can challenge our own ideas, understand each other better and not become complacent. The only time I don't value them is when they're not honest, masking hidden agendas, or when their proponents are more interested in rhetoric than in engaging in open discussion. |
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02-19-2005, 11:18 PM | #98 |
Honourary Elitist Inklette
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I see this thread is still drawing a crowd.
Well, having nothing to do with sexual orientation really, but more with gender identity...I'm going to Drag Ball tonight! It should pretty fun...though I really don't care for the "dance" music people play these days. Anyways, it was funny that a friend of mine commented that she was wearing a very girly outfit 'cause she was straight, and didn't want to confuse the lesbians. And so I pointed out to her than not all lesbians are butch. |
02-27-2005, 10:18 PM | #99 |
Elf Lord
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Fyi
Feb 25, 8:09 AM EST
New HIV Strain May Progress Quickly By JEFF DONN Associated Press Writer BOSTON (AP) -- Research on a recently discovered HIV strain shows it holds an array of disturbing traits that help it quickly progress to full-blown AIDS while resisting drug treatments, doctors said Thursday at the leading meeting on AIDS science. The variant, discovered in a New York City patient, may have raced from infection to full-blown AIDS in as little as four months, doctors said at the 12th Annual Retrovirus Conference. Typical strains can take 10 years to progress to full-blown AIDS. Many new infections are resistant to treatment with common HIV drugs, and a small number of HIV variants have quickly progressed to the disease. But the New York patient's doctors said the case combines both characteristics in a worrisome way. "The unique feature of this case is the convergence of ... the transmission of a remarkably drug-resistant HIV-1 variant and the extremely rapid clinical course to AIDS," the patient's doctors said in a review of his case. The team is led by Dr. David Ho at Rockefeller University in New York. Aspects of the HIV variant suggest it is especially deadly. It is capable of using both main entry points to infect cells, and it grows well in the lab, unlike most drug-resistant strains. It also causes cells that it infects to clump together, allowing them to kill other uninfected cells. The patient, in his late 40s, was diagnosed in December and has lost 10 pounds in the past three weeks alone. It took him between four and 20 months to develop AIDS, Ho said. Lab tests showed the patient was resistant to three of the four classes of AIDS drugs. He is taking other AIDS drugs now in the hope of vanquishing the infection. Scientists are still trying to find the source of the man's disease. New York City health authorities have alerted doctors and begun to trace the patient's sexual contacts. The patient, whose name has been withheld, had unprotected anal sex with many other men, often in conjunction with methamphetamine use. Some researchers have suggested that the patient may simply be unusually susceptible to AIDS, but his doctors said they have found no sign that his immune system is particularly vulnerable. San Diego health officials have said they are studying a similar strain found there in a patient. "We don't know whether this is a single isolated event or whether in fact there are other cases out there," said Ho, who is a paid consultant to ViroLogic Inc., which makes resistance tests. Up to 950,000 people have the AIDS virus in the United States. About 18,000 die annually. ****************************** A similar strain across a continent - this is extremely fast migration.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-27-2005, 10:32 PM | #100 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 421
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This is a sad news (that I knew already).
What is your motive for posting it in this specific thread? |
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