07-26-2005, 03:45 AM | #81 | |
Elf Lord
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07-26-2005, 03:44 PM | #82 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Perhaps there's some misunderstanding going on - I'll back up and try to clear things up.
you wrote this: Quote:
Also, I imagine you know that I think the historically-written parts of the Bible are literally true (there's also poetry and imagery parts, and IMO they're fairly easy to distinguish), and that homosexuality is a sin (along with gossip and other things), and that God made the world in 6 days around 6k years ago. Do you think I should lose my vote in my country, especially given that those things are unable to be shown right or wrong by anyone? (I do, however, think evolution should be taught in schools - I mean, school can be pretty boring, so why not discuss something amusing and far-fetched like some of the concepts in evolution )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-27-2005, 04:25 AM | #83 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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By "they" I mean people with extremist ideas who want to impose them on others, I didn't specifically mean Creationists, or you! There is nothing wrong with having beliefs, it's the imposition of them on others that I take issue with. That is what these Islamist extremists are doing to recruit these nutters, so we have to find out all the ways in which we can neutralise their effectiveness. Quote:
No. My intent was the opposite. The views you hold would, to a non-believer, seem unreasonable. Some aspects of them may even be regarded as "extreme" (e.g. I think it's "extreme" to regard homosexuality as a sin). However, you do not go around forcing them on others and you do not use extreme methods to propagate them. That is the key distinction: between the "what" (no problem) and the "how" (no extremism). We are in danger of conflating the beliefs (some of which may look extreme to us) with the methods (some of which are extreme) in our response to Islamist terror attacks. Do you see where I'm coming from now? I can see how the misunderstanding arose and sorry if you were offended. I hope I have explained myself better now. This should be seen in the light of the following comments made on this thread, which are examples of this conflation, IMO: Quote:
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Last edited by The Gaffer : 07-27-2005 at 04:34 AM. |
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07-27-2005, 09:40 AM | #84 | |
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07-27-2005, 11:22 AM | #85 | |
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Now, Sun-star, if the media events are as given in that article and so subject to error in the 1st world, what would e the situation in the 3rd whence so many of the terrorists appear to come? Did I miss reports of dancing in the streets like that for 9/11? Or were the numbers killed too few? We are so accustomed to allegations of veracity in the media (you know they never make mistakes, right?) that most people take them at face value. Turns out they conveyed false information which you corrected by your information. I appreciate that. But I sense a an injured pride or response because of the reactions of folks to information they were given. I have the happy ability to get "second opinions" and local information which is not available to many. We are on the same side.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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07-27-2005, 01:24 PM | #86 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-27-2005, 02:58 PM | #87 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, I do - but I think they might be somewhat interwoven in some cases, and there's where it get complex ... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-27-2005, 03:03 PM | #88 | ||
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And to me, one big difference is that I see current Muslims in position of authority inciting the populace to hate and anger prior to provocation (or provocation in our opinion), while I don't see the equivalent in current Christian/Western leaders. We can discuss the past, too, but right now, I"m talking about current leaders and happenings. And this also raises the question of definitions - I mean, will you consider anyone who wants to call themselves a Muslim a Muslim? Or will you say there should be some reasonable basic definition?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-27-2005 at 03:06 PM. |
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07-27-2005, 03:38 PM | #89 |
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...."it's those double Muslims you gotta watch out for" ......Silver Streak
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07-27-2005, 10:24 PM | #90 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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07-27-2005, 10:40 PM | #91 |
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'xcuse me, IR, when have any of these programs noted above shown beheadings in say the last 200+ years? And which one showed dancing in the streets over the bombing of Towers with humans in the airplanes? (Not that the stricter sects would dance anyway, but you get the drift!)
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
07-28-2005, 04:04 AM | #92 | ||||
Elf Lord
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* dunks tater in tea * Ahem. "Imposition on nutters": "exploitation of nutters" might be better. Images of "heroic" attacks against Westerners are used as a recruitment tool. These sorts of images are very powerful. But the end result is that the beliefs are propagated through the medium of nutters. Quote:
- "Christian" countries gave us two world wars, don't you know - There are textual references to all sorts of things in the Bible that the majority of us wouldn't think of as reasonable today (e.g. slavery) I could go on. But I feel that posing these sorts of questions is mostly unhelpful in this climate because of their sweeping and divisive nature. Maybe this is something it would be good to discuss further. Quote:
Imagine for a moment that you are a Pakistani muslim who believes that America and Britain used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq and nab its resources. (Lots and lots of such people exist.) What feelings do you think you would have about the West? Quote:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 07-28-2005 at 04:08 AM. |
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07-28-2005, 07:15 AM | #93 |
Elf Lord
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Here's why it's especially important to act positively to prevent religious division:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4723339.stm |
07-28-2005, 09:59 AM | #94 |
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here's a thought to ponder on religion and terrorism... whether it's in palestine or northern ireland, muslim or catholic, terrorist leaders tend to use religion and "the afterlife" as a motivation for people to sacrifice their own lives in a way that will bring them glory when the die (supposedly)
agnostics, like myself, don't believe there is an afterlife (this is the only one we've got)... so, for me, sacrificing this life simply isn't an option, no matter what the cause... might this "belief system" be a better one to encourage?
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07-28-2005, 10:43 AM | #95 |
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Heh!
However, we all end up in the ground at some point. I'd probably sacrifice myself under certain circumstances even though there's no eternal reward. |
07-28-2005, 10:59 AM | #96 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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By jove, brownjenkins may have something.
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07-28-2005, 11:10 AM | #97 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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07-28-2005, 01:59 PM | #98 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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07-29-2005, 09:56 AM | #99 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Even so, I doubt if they are calling upon people to hate Muslims, and to try to kill them on their own initiative (as opposed to within the context of a country's military action), and to rejoice if a Muslim is killed by someone, and I doubt that southern preachers are doing so, either. Do you claim that they are?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 10:00 AM | #100 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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