01-06-2005, 11:49 PM | #81 |
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I translated it as "muslims aren't as "fair" as christians".
Now...is being "fair" good? or is it "smart"? Could it realistically be both?
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01-07-2005, 04:58 AM | #82 |
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Well, in the same way that a right-wing person does not, IMO, have views which are as "fair", "good" or even as "smart" as mine , it is always possible, and indeed essential, to exercise discriminatory judgment as to the validity of any set of views or beliefs.
It is therefore quite possible to argue that Christianity is "better" than Islam from a given point of view. But what you really must do is be clear that people are people first, before their beliefs, and they are not the same as their belief system (thank God). Just because it is written in some book doesn't mean that everyone who subscribes to that religion robotically implements its agenda 24/7. Even right-wing people are charitable and kind-hearted, as they share our common traits as humans. The other thing to throw into the mix is that any such critique must necessarily be based upon an interpretation of that belief system. No doubt many scholars of Islam would disagree with this particular one. Finally, we have to consider the historical context of conflict and prejudice between Christians and Muslims over the past 1,000 years or so (and even the last 4) and where these kinds of interpretations sit within that context. Do they result in greater or less understanding and harmony between groups? What would be the effects of such statements amongst those groups and others. One must assume that the authors are aware of this context, and therefore what the likely outcomes are. Wankers. |
01-07-2005, 07:37 AM | #83 |
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"Wankers"
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01-07-2005, 09:27 AM | #84 |
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Sorry, got a bit cross there. :contrite:
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01-07-2005, 04:04 PM | #85 | |
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Well, sadly, it seems to me the point is that if you're a Christian, you'd better not make any comment AT ALL about ANYTHING in ANY another worldview that seems to be deficient or even wrong, or you'll get criticized for looking down on others and being hateful and intolerant and judgemental. But OTOH, be prepared to have your Christian worldview blasted, for example, for "looking down on" homosexuals (which it DOES NOT, thankyouverymuch), and the criticizer getting praised. *sigh* ALL inky was doing was providing a very interesting article for us to read and think about. It referenced Islamic scriptures, Islamic official procedures (in hospitals), and observed general population trends on the subject of helping people of different faiths. It compared them to Christian scriptures and official Christian procedures (in hospitals) on the same subject. So what's your problem with that? How are we to make judgements on a particular worldview, unless we turn to its official scriptures and procedures and statements from officials and generally observed behaviors of those that adhere to it? Can't we say we don't like an aspect of a worldview without being accused of looking down on the people involved? Again, I don't see people hesitating to criticize Christianity's views on, for example, homosexuality (and you guys keep getting many of them wrong, btw). Why can't a Christian criticize views in another worldview that he/she doesn't like? What's with this double standard? I found Inky's article very interesting, and I'm glad to see the ideas changing in some areas of Islam. Did you guys read the posts in the tsunami thread where I posted the email from the Indonesian ladies? That's a first-hand report from an Indonesian lady in Aceh, and she reports intimidation by Muslims against receiving aid from non-Muslims, and passes on an email from a Muslim lady who is speaking out against it. Shall I not say anything about that because it might be perceived as looking down on Muslims, or is it OK to say I think that's wrong and hurtful and I wish they would change their ways and I'm glad to see that some people have changed?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-07-2005 at 04:13 PM. |
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01-07-2005, 04:13 PM | #86 |
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Whose criticizing "Christianity's" point of view on homosexuality? Personally, Im just criticizing those people who choose to discriminate against homosexuals. Doesnt matter how they justify it. Whether its god or secular reasons. Do keep in mind there are PLENTY of christians who DONT think we should be descriminating against gays. Its about what the INDIVIDUAL thinks. Not about blanket religion bashing or promoting. Yet many christian INDIVIDUALS DO bash Islam as a whole by saying things like oh Christians are MUCH more loving and giving people then those Muslims. Is THAT ok?
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01-07-2005, 04:16 PM | #87 | |
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Frankly, I found that "email" kind of dubious. It seemed very much like a plant. Especially some of the horrible wording in it. But I have no proof of this so I wasnt going to say anything directly. But it just seemed like a propaganda piece. Id love to get some background on the author and where she is from and why she is writing a western aid worker in a way that seems to be addressing all muslims. When was there mass cheering in the streets of Jakarta after 9/11?
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01-07-2005, 04:24 PM | #88 | ||||
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What in that article was saying "Muslims aren't as good as Christians, or what?" Why can't aspects of worldviews be compared and evaluated? I don't see wholesale condemnation of Muslims in that article, do you? I don't think bashing a religion as a whole is right, but I think it's very valid to comment on its official scriptures and statements and practices.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-07-2005, 04:26 PM | #89 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-07-2005, 04:46 PM | #90 | |
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as you well know, many christians are more different from one another than they might be from a jew or a buddhist... i think the same can probably be said of muslims in reality, there is no such thing as "muslim"... so referring to them in any general way is mistaken... the same could be said for "christian" better to say "this person believes..." than "this muslim believes..." remember, we need not be definined by our belief system!!
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01-07-2005, 04:50 PM | #91 |
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But brownie, I'm not judging individual Muslims, I'm making evaluations on a specific tenet from their official scriptures and leaders and public policies.
And what really set me off (sorry I got so mad, Gaffer - your next post was much more like you, but that first one really got to me) was that from this straightforward article that did NOT bash Muslims as a whole, but instead referred to official scripture and leaders' positions, and official policies of Muslim hospitals, Gaffer (who is very kind and reasonable) came to the conclusion somehow that the "point" was that Christians were better than Muslims
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-07-2005, 04:57 PM | #92 |
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And what I'm REALLY bummed about is that the stars in my avvy don't sparkle anymore, since I got DSL and I think they're pretty when they sparkle ...
and I don't feel well, and I'm cranky, and I hurt, and I have an extremely busy afternoon and evening lined up, and it's hard to handle a wheelchair in the rain (I need two hands to lift it out of the back of the car so I can't hold an umbrella, and I need two hands to lift my son into the wheelchair so I can't hold an umbrella), and it just makes me sad that it seems that there's a double standard going on. And it makes me sad that there's this terrible tragedy going on, and people are comparing aid numbers, and using this as a chance to take potshots at countries. And like you, I'm happiest when others are happy, and they're not right now. Oh well. I think I'll go cry for a bit.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-07-2005, 05:02 PM | #93 | |||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-07-2005, 05:06 PM | #94 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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01-07-2005, 08:34 PM | #95 | |||
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I think perhaps it was posted in the tsunami thread because of the "Good Samaritan" aspect of the tragedy - the fact that so many countries, with all sorts of differences, were contributing aid, and some Muslims were saying to not take aid from non-Muslims, and others were trying to change this.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-07-2005 at 08:35 PM. |
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01-10-2005, 05:08 AM | #96 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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Sharon, I'm sorry that my response got you down; It sounds like you've got your hands full at the moment. Keep the heid and it'll soon be spring!
I'm also surprised that you didn't understand why I reacted that way. By and large, it's not the facts quoted in the article I have a problem with but the tone and emphasis. Here are some examples: Quote:
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As I pointed out, you have to question the motivation and timing of the authors and, by extension, Inked for posting it in this thread AND in another one. Is there a word for the wanton copying and pasting of diatribes from other web sites onto bulletin boards? I also agree that Christians should be at liberty to say what they like. However, they should be prepared to take the heat if what they say is unacceptable. |
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01-10-2005, 08:22 AM | #97 | |
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Should be! "Propaposter"? (propaganda+poster) or "cut and patsy"....
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01-10-2005, 10:20 AM | #98 |
Elf Lord
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Heh! I like the latter!
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01-10-2005, 10:29 AM | #99 |
Elf Lord
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How about 'agit-poster' - anyone remember 'agit-pop'?
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01-10-2005, 10:37 AM | #100 | ||
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I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
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