10-16-2003, 03:18 PM | #81 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-16-2003, 03:21 PM | #82 | |
Lady of Letters
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And also that I think America is a fascinating country and the Americans I've met have (mostly) been friendly, intelligent, interesting people. The Europeans I've met have also (mostly) been all those things. This is so obvious I'm really surprised it needs saying And a bit more on topic - I don't think there's a problem with Muslims in general. It will take a few generations for large groups to integrate, but it's happened before - immigrants come and eventually become part of our society (hopefully without losing their own cultural identity). I don't see it as a big deal, certainly not in the UK.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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10-16-2003, 03:22 PM | #83 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-16-2003, 03:53 PM | #84 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Hmmm - perhaps we have strayed a bit wide from the initial intent of this thread - prejudice displayed toward Muslims in western society (esp since 9-11-01). What say we all consider our points well-scored, lick our wounds, make apologies we feel necessary and move on?
And actually, it isn't JUST Muslims in America who suffer fallout from the 9-11 attacks: I know some Christian families - a few Arab-American and Indian-American, who get lots of stares in public, feel like they have to be more careful, didn't feel like they could leave their homes just after the incidents, etc. We don't wear our religious affiliations on our skin - just our skin tones. These friends of mine felt alienated in their own society. I'm sure Muslims felt much the same - it just wasn't unique to those of the Islamic faith. |
10-16-2003, 04:02 PM | #85 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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I see you're all here - so what's up? Everybody reading, nobody writing? Do I get the last word on everything around here?
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10-16-2003, 04:02 PM | #86 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Geez. The first page in this thread was actually interesting.
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I also agree with everything Eärniel has said.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 10-16-2003 at 04:04 PM. |
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10-16-2003, 04:06 PM | #87 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Well, don't you think it is human nature to go by first impression, or example? When we see Palastinians celebrating the deaths of thousands of innocent people, and not all that died in 9/11 were Americans btw, don't you think that leaves a bad taste in the mouths of Americans? Although it is very true that most Americans do not look at all Muslims in that way, the actions of the Muslim world certianly has not helped the peace process with Israel, even if it only be a handful. Not all Palistinians are suicide bombers, but I find that I have to agree with JD here, in that when this is something that they shove down their kids throats, and teach them this kind of hatred, and unrealistic views of the rest of the world, you are actually creating a future race of prejudice, narrow minded human beings that will portray the victim at every turn. The problem is, is that when these kids are taught this, they believe and truely do not know they way it is. They, like kids everywhere will follow that example set down by mom and dad. Sad, isn't it?
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10-16-2003, 04:15 PM | #88 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-16-2003, 04:28 PM | #89 |
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One observation I've heard is that the European media seems quite slanted toward the Palestinian viewpoint (and some would fear that's due to lingering anti-semitism in Europe, but I don't necessarily think so) while the American media has been slanted more toward the Israeli viewpoint (and some think THAT is changing!).
If that's the case, it helps us understand the gulf in viewpoints between Americans and Europeans (or is a result of it? both?). Also heard about a recently published book with an interesting premise. Has to do with two different concepts of a democracy - one established in 18th century Philadelphia, the other in 18th century Paris. The books posits that the former has an eye toward popular representation on all issues. The latter is more focused on "international norms". So that for American-style democracy, representation of the governed is essential. European-style democracy DISTRUSTS this as populist and nationalistic - and attributes it's two World Wars to this kind of democracy at work. Americans don't understand how a group of Europeans can spend three days in Serbia and start drafting a constitution for it without Serbians involved in the process (valuing representation) while the Europeans have no problem with it and don't see why the Americans do - it's all according to international norms anyway. Not DIRECTLY related to Muslims here, but bears on international differences as we all try to figure out where we move from here in Iraq and perhaps other areas. And maybe clues us in to why we disagree on some things - and think we're speaking the same language when maybe we are not. Last word again? |
10-16-2003, 04:36 PM | #90 | ||
Elf Lord
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- I have known many Americans, in many difference capacities, teacher, student, colleague, flatmate, friend, one-off acquaintance, and liked almost all of them. I am not anti-American. - anti-American attitudes do exist in Europe, partly (probably) because some people resent them for being powerful and successful, partly because some people resent their perceived imperialism (and before some wise pranker jumps on my case, please see the emphasis on PERCEIVED) - I can understand why Israelis feel threatened. My god, all their neighbours hate them with a vengeance. - I condemn all terrorism - I understand why Palestinians feel oppressed and desperate. How would you feel if your family farm was confiscated and handed over to someone from the other side of the world who just happens to be of the right religion? IR hit the nail on the head there. - I totally agree that this thread is not about any of the above And here's the main point: SGH: it IS human nature to go by first impression, but that's where prejudice comes from. You seem to be saying that it's OK to be led by these impressions. My point is that you need to be critical of these impressions, and have faith that there are human beings underneath it all. Where do they come from? We've already heard that the so-called "celebrations" after 9/11 were faked. Never heard of the expression "through a scanner darkly"? |
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10-16-2003, 04:36 PM | #91 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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Arafat, on the other hand, did the opposite. Quote:
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Btw:There is no Palestine now. There will be, probably, but there isn't right now. Quote:
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1. lots of Palestinians work in Israel. There aren't many places to work in the autonomy. 2. Israel supplies water, food, medicians, electricity etc. to the autonomy. Without us the autonomy would collapse. 3. we are simply stronger. We have the right to have everything we have. including some areas in the boundaries (I'm not sure if this word is correct. Try 'frontiers' if it doesn't fit). We conquerwed thsese ares in a war that the arabs started. Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 10-16-2003 at 04:37 PM. |
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10-16-2003, 04:52 PM | #92 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-16-2003, 04:54 PM | #93 | ||
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10-16-2003, 05:24 PM | #94 | |
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But you did say that Palestinian children are being indoctrinated to hate Jews/The West. I took that to be quite a generalisation. However, I think there's some truth in it, and I agree that it's terribly depressing. But it's not without hope. Look at Rwanda: a country which was racked by attempted genocide, where children were encouraged to go around hacking their neighbours to pieces. It's still a mess, but they're rebuilding (albeit under an authoritarian dictatorship). Look at Northern Ireland, a religious battleground almost as old as the Middle East (well, 400 years compared with 1,400 years, but you get my point), where terrorism has been all but eliminated. BTW, Radagast, I also happen to be of the view that the Israelis are more moral (by my standards) in the way that they pursue their goals than Islamic Jihad are in the way they pursue theirs. However, that's not the point. The Palestinians' profound sense of grievance is real and not based on imaginary or historical slights, and that's the fuel for the nutters' fire. The real enemy is extremism. I think that if the majority can be given a voice, hope and a realistic process for acheiving their goals, no matter what the situation, peace is possible. Which is why we need to get underneath our impressions and try to understand each other as human beings. Alternatively, you could lock all the men up in a cupboard for a year. (There was a conference of Israeli and Palestinian women in London recently which was very amicable and constructive. ) Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-16-2003 at 05:30 PM. |
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10-16-2003, 05:39 PM | #95 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-16-2003, 06:07 PM | #96 |
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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I would reccomend this link on the war between Israel and Palestinians. Don't know if all that's said there is true, but it's worth a read (and I think everyone should know a bit more of the conflict before they decide which 'side' they're on, or if it's worth taking anyone's side at all).
I'll possibly say something on it myself tomorrow, when I'm not busy trying to keep my eyes open. Edit: This link should also be of interest: http://www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org/backinfo.html
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10-16-2003, 06:23 PM | #97 |
im quite stupid
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This thread has certinally made a few things clear to me in my mind.
Will everyone please go back and read the origional post. I set up this thread to find out how people view Muslims. Conclusions that can be drawn from this thread so far - Say muslim people think America hater, Plasistine, Middle east, Terrorism - People defintally seem to be focusing on the negative of these people at the moment - There seem little effort/intrest to understand these people and there action just an overiding ambition to condem them. - We cannot have a 'religious/racial' dissussion without it becomming a 'political' dissussion! Now in a way this has served it purpose its clear to me that people are finding it very difficult to drawn a line between Muslims and terrorism etc! And Gaffer you have to be around a lot longer before you can make personal comments about JD ive been here ages so i can say what i want (but i chose to keep that to myself)
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10-16-2003, 06:33 PM | #98 |
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Falagar, I can tell that this is an arabic site - it is definetly pro-palestinian. But the maps are ok. the introduction (palastinien arabs - minority n Israel) is all wrong.
About the Racism - I admit that there are many racists here. one of my friends is. But most of the Israelis are not racist. (I don't have time to read the article. I'm saying that only about the title. I will continue tomorrow. I must run. See you tomorrow! [edit] Sween, I can tell you what I think about the religion, Islam: it's awful. much more strict then jewdaism, or christianity. If I wasn't jew, one of the religions I would definately don't want to be is Islam. Last edited by Radagast The Brown : 10-16-2003 at 06:38 PM. |
10-16-2003, 07:25 PM | #99 | |
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I
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Sween - I don't think American hater when I think of muslim, islam or Middle East - but they are the most vocal and according to surveys in the majority. Of course everyone isn't as i said repeatedly - we have a lot of muslims here and we have a mosque just a few miles on rt 1 from where I live. If you look at the posts I had made before OTHERS dragged the discussion away - you will see that.
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10-16-2003, 07:27 PM | #100 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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Is Islam really a peaceful religion? In school, all we hear about it is how it is so peaceful it is, etc, and what a great religion it is.
I personally don't like it much after reading about it in my history text books and other sources. I thought there were some "war like" elements to it. I mean, in its beginning they went on huge war conquests to try to make the whole world Muslims. Phew, thank god for Charles Martel. But of course there are the crusades with Christians and if you take the bible to be historical accurate, the hebrew people conquered a bunch of lands. Basically, I'm a little confused that now in school ppl are saying that Jihad has nothing to do with war?? I thought that was the whole point of it? Calling a jihad against infidels, etc. no? In the Middle East death against infidels is preached, is it not? Then why do all these muslims seem to think it is? Like JD says, there is all this footage of Palestinians and other Muslims in Arab nations cheering on the death of Israelis and Americans. What is with all the homicide bombings? Seems to me that a majority of the Muslims in the middle east have a hatred for the Israelis and Americans. Or is this just how the stupid media is portraying them? They all seems like fanatics over there. It just seems that everything is messed up over there, and Muslims in this contry sypmathize with them and support them. A majority of terrorists these days seem to be like 90% Muslim, so I don't know what to think there? What in the religion of Islam makes all these fanatic nuts think that by blowing up innocent ppl they will get to paradise? I personally have nothing against the people of that religion, I just don't like that religion much. I only know of one Muslim in my grade - probably a couple more. I'm not prejudiced, just not one of my favorite religions. If I met a really nice person who was Muslim, it would not make much difference to me. I would get along fine.
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