ADD & ADHD in kids- bad parenting?

[Sminty_Smeagol]

What determines a gifted student?

Oh and a little rant here about a personal experience of what I guess is ADD (maybe should go in the venting thread?)


often times my thoughts just whir from one to the next, never completing one thought or idea before it's forgotten and my focus or whatever is on another one. It's frustrating. In school I always feel like I am one step behind the rest... I don't feel less intelligent, although sometimes I feel impaired or I entertain the thought of perhaps having some retardation my parents haven't told me about. It takes a lot of hard work to catch on to things, to wrap my brain around audible instructions especially. If it's written down, I'm fine. But even doing written down schoolwork assignments is difficult for me. Sure, I could get into it, I could get thinking about it. I could write a paper for you. Often times I do my schoolwork, but turning it in is another matter. I always lose it or misplace it, or I forget to turn it in or am not sure now. Now I only do assignments that I can get into, but even these are a discouragement, for recently I really got into a History paper and wrote it all in one day, and I even illustrated it and aesthetically adjusted the fonts and inserted quotes pertaining to each of the different sections - something I could really be proud of. Something I would of love to have gotten credit for. But now I have no idea where it is or what happened to it. It probably got thrown out with many other important things in a recent organization binge. I do that. I'll empty everything and throw it all away. Sometimes even if I know it is important, but in a desperate chance to achieve some kind of organization I throw it all out. Around other people when there are instructions, I always feel a step behind everyone else. I feel slow. Oftentimes my most credible educational things never recieve credit.

Oh and the paper was on the 'sexual ideals' in American culture... you know, body type etc that is considered attractive. And how sexual ideals (don't know the technical word, thats what I call it) are developed and affected.

On my report card I got today I got 4 F's, 3 C's, 1 A -the A is in Sculpture, where we don't have to keep up with anything except the piece we are working on, always in our own little plastic boxes on a shelf

But how does everyone else always know what has to be turned in and what we don't have to turn in? Does the teacher say but I just don't notice? Last year I had a quarter in a reading class (schedule problems) and only after I left did I find out that there was a big folder on the wall to place our assignments in. Of course, I got a bad grade in that class. I always feel like I'm in a different world than everyone else, and sometimes I get so self-concious because I feel like I'm doing something wrong. In my fibercraft class I would be requested to go get some material from a storage room. I had to go over it 50 times with the teacher exactly what to do and where it was. By that time everyone was like 'LIZ JUST GO' so I did and all the while I was breaking a sweat worrying whether I was going in the right room or worrying about what I was supposed to do next. I'm really slow at catching on to things. I hate being made to go get something or to deliver a message to a teacher, because I need very detailed instructions. I feel really self concious doing anything Im supposed to be doing, always feeling like I know that I am doing something wrong. It makes me feel so stupid sometimes... Anyways I've pretty much given up hope and I don't even do any assigments anymore.

Hopefully I'll switch to a medication that is ok with me... God bless the meds

[Cirdan]

Translating words to actions and actions to words. It seems I've noticed this more both in my self and my son. It almost seems that the cure is to become obsessive/compulsive; well, ok, not completely. I was determined to be gifted becasue I was very good at standardized tests, yet I was always sloppy, disorganized, losing assignments, getting into trouble instead of paying attention in class. (No meds then). I never achieved in school because I could skate by on innate ability until the work became too complicated, at the college level, to wing it.

You will outgrow some of the traits you discussed but you need to give yourself a chance to success by finding techniques to managed the structured world. Start with task lists and reward yourself for completeing them. Do work and save it in one plce as soon as possible. I know it sounds easy to say and impossible to do but as you get better at organizing techniques the chaos that triggers the anxiety and confusion that trip you up. It's a lot of work and requires a real commitment and motivation. It took some rather unpleasant life events for me to get to the point were I really got motivated to address the problem and I would like to help you avoid that.

PM me if you want the gory details, or if you're just needing to let off steam then you have my sympathies.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
What determines a gifted student?

Here is part of a famous list by Janice Szabos comparing traits of a truly gifted child with one who is not gifted, from issue 34 of Challenge magazine (1989). (edit: for some reason, I separated this into two columns, but it keeps blending them on the post)

Bright Child vs. Gifted Child

Knows the answers vs. Asks the questions
is interested vs. is highly curious
has good ideas vs. has wild, silly ideas
works hard vs. plays around, yet tests well
answers the questions vs. discusses in detail, elaborates
top group vs. beyond the group
listens with interest vs. has strong feelings & opinions
learns with ease vs. already knows
understands ideas vs. constructs abstractions
enjoys peers vs. prefers adults
grasps the meaning vs. draws inferences
completes assignments vs. initiates projects
is receptive vs. is intense
copies accurately vs. creates a new design
enjoys school vs. enjoys learning
good memorizer vs. good guesser
is alert vs. is keenly observant
is pleased with his learning vs. is highly self-critical

I omitted some due to length.

Here are some characteristics from a rating scale used to identify gifted students (Creative Learning Press, Inc.):

prefers to work independantly, requires little direction from teachers.

is interested in many "adult" problems such as religion, politics, sex, race -- more than usual for age level.

Often is self assertive; stubborn in his beliefs

likes to organize and bring structure to things, people, and situations

is quite concerned with right and wrong, good and bad; often evaluates and passes judgement on events, people and things.

self-critical

Displays a great deal of curiousity about many things; is constantly asking questions about anything and everything

generates a large number of ideas or solutions to problems and questions; often offers unusual, unique, clever responses

is uninhibited in expressions of opinion; is sometimes radical and spirited in disagreement

is a high risk take; is adventurous and speculative

displays a good deal of intellectual playfulness; fantasizes; imagines

displays a keen sense of humor and sees humor in situations that may not appear to be humorous to others

shows emotional sensitivity

is sensitive to beauty; attends to aesthetic characteristics of things

nonconforming, accepts disorder; is not interested in details; is individualistic; does not fear being different

critisizes constructively; is unwilling to accept authoritarian pronouncements without critical examination

Again, this was shortened due to length.
Hope this sufficiently helped to answer the question without being overly lengthy! At least people might find it interesting.

Also, Sminty, I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Here are a few things that might help, in case you or anyone else w/ similar problems is interested.

Involve adults -- ask teachers for help, describe to them your weaknesses so that they can better understand. Try to get a parent or friend to help with organizing workspace, and make it a point to talk with each teacher about their expectations, be sure you have a copy of any syllabi (those annoying papers they hand out the first day of class -- those usually tell what will "count"), and keep it as the first page in your folder for that class. Talking with the teachers openly like that not only helps you understand the structure of that class better, it also will make you seem a very mature and dedicated student, which will score points. If a teacher sees that you take the time to talk to him about the class, he is more likely to help you, and maybe even cut you some slack when you have a problem (lost work, etc.)

Use mental techniques to relieve yourself of self-conciousness. Tell yourself how unimportant it is what anyone thinks of you (regarding minor stuff like getting stuff from a storage room -- or you could just say "My gifts lie elsewhere, perhaps you should ask ___ to get it." ) This is true, but we all forget it sometimes.

Make stress-relief techniques part of your daily routine, whether it be yoga or other "centering" type exercise, visualization/ meditation, deep breathing, "stream of consciousness" writing, drawing, something that forces you to relax. Anxiety is counterproductive for both learning and organizing.

Hope some of this helps someone.

[Starr Polish]

Umm...apparently I am gifted then...because...yeah:


Knows the answers vs. Asks the questions
is interested vs. is highly curious
has good ideas vs. has wild, silly ideas
works hard vs. plays around, yet tests well
answers the questions vs. discusses in detail, elaborates
top group vs. beyond the group (not sure about this one)
listens with interest vs. has strong feelings & opinions
learns with ease vs. already knows
understands ideas vs. constructs abstractions
enjoys peers vs. prefers adults (and other "peers" that are hard to find and seem much more mature than the average high school student)
grasps the meaning vs. draws inferences
completes assignments vs. initiates projects
is receptive vs. is intense
copies accurately vs. creates a new design
enjoys school vs. enjoys learning
good memorizer vs. good guesser
is alert vs. is keenly observant
is pleased with his learning vs. is highly self-critical

Bolded the things I felt I was, and underlined the things I thought REALLY described me. Most of these things I've thought of myself, and have been told by other people, including friends, parents, and other adults.

Huh.

[azalea]

Yeah, and I forgot to add that there are exceptions, that not every gifted kid will display all or even most of the traits -- some are identified solely on tests, but knowing the traits that generally would describe a gifted kid at least in part can help identify those that may not test as well for whatever reason (test high but not high enough to qualify). Then there are those who are gifted but also have a disability (behavior disorder such as ADHD, or learning disability such as dyslexia). These are often overlooked as gifted because their disability can interfere with both their testing skills and their display of those characteristics, because of the difficulties in navigating the school environment.

Then there is the designation of "talented." This is rarely used to qualify anyone, and the public schools do next to nothing for these kids. The best example for this is a child who may or may not test as gifted, but has an incredible talent for music, played an instrument at an early age, can compose his own music, etc. Another example would be one who has a talent for visual art, such as drawing and painting, and performs in this realm far beyond average for his age. There are other talents, but these are a couple of examples. School systems are ideally supposed to provide enrichment for them as well, but since they're so rare, it wouldn't be practical. These kids prabably score as gifted anyway, but it's not necessarily so. They usually end up in private arts schools, I think, or just develop it at home or through community-based programs or private tutorials. Anyway, it's kind of interesting.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I started taking prescription Adderol today, and I thought I would add my experience to this thread.
I hope this is a genuine observation (brought about by the alteration from an ADD'ed individual into the natural state of mentally healthy individuals) concerning ADD itself and the natural state compared to it, and not some weird observation made in an unnatural high-from-ADD-pills state. I wouldn't really know what is natural for other people, and sure you may be reading this and thinking to yourself, 'this person is high...'; but I am hoping that it is an actual comparison between having ADD and not having it, the differences exaggerated by a transformation in an ADD individual, who for the very first time is now able to experience life as others experience it. If this is true, and this is really how others experience things (although it would be difficult to tell as everything is written from the perspective of someone who previously had ADD, and who is accustomed to different living than other people), then hopefully it would help to display the deprived state and difficulty of having ADD, and how people with ADD are devoid of the beautiful, whole perception, that other people are accustomed to, and may take advantage of without realizing it, numb to their own gift of concentration and perception, possibly even causing them to consider people with ADD retarded (in the case of my father in his schooldays).

To me, this illustrates the narrow mindedness and limited understanding of individual perception. How an individual who functions normally could ever comprehend one with ADD is beyond me... and vice versa. Their understanding would be morphed based on their own perception, their own viewpoint, misjudging or miscalculating and lacking complete understanding, complete understanding being impossible without personal experience; rendering individuals unable to completely relate to, or comprehend, someone who functions differently from themselves. And so I suppose it is a blessing in ways to have mental dysfunctions (in my case, ADD and Depression) and then being able to experience life without them with the aid of the miracle of scientific and medical technology, and in my case in this way broadening my perception, making me realize that we shouldn't look down on someone for not understanding them... who are we, really? What makes us the way we are? Anybody could be any way, if even from slightly different brain development, so we shouldn't hold our own perception and opinions above others.
'Stop being lazy' 'Do your work' 'pay attention!' 'Just get organized' 'it's easy' 'I can't believe you can't figure this out', these are all very simple for someone without ADD to say.

Here is some stuff I wrote in church on the bulletin using my dad's pen (I know, criticize me, it was church, but I was overcome with such new feelings- It is slightly fragmented, it was overwhelming so I just jotted down some explanations for the way I was feeling throughout the sermon):

I took some Adderol this morning for my ADD. I forgot I had taken it until I realized that I am feeling actually integrated into my environment. I usually feel very distant, misplaced, claustrophobic, clouded, confused. I'm really actually feeling, feeling distinctly in an environment. I feel more whole then I have felt in years, with my upped dose of Lexapro + my new Adderol prescription.

It's a weird feeling. Instead of feeling so out of place I feel integrated, wonderful, reacting and interacting with my environment. I feel like I am a part of life now, better to interact with it. I don't feel lost, misplaced anymore. I'm actually enjoying this.

I have such a nice, whole, pleasant, satisfied feeling. I think me writing this is evidence of this. Usually my thoughts would be too jambled and disoriented. I wouldn't even bother because I wouldn't be able to get them out clearly.
I'm feeling change and time. I feel like I am actually flowing with things. I'm feeling like I am part of the world. Words cannot express....

I can feel my body. It's like I was never really there before. It's in a room with other bodies... A personality in each of them. Thoughts. I am aware. All of the sudden everything is so real, my thoughts and feelings are so clear and real. It's like I've put on glasses for the first time. Like I'm actually living.
The world and I can co-exist.

It's like I'm actually seeing, actually hearing, actually existing and being in my location for the first time in years. I'm not a misplaced, lost, confused object anymore. I'm so relaxed and at peace in my environment. I don't feel anxious or confused. It's amazing. How someone who always experiences things that way could ever comprehend my natural state... it seems it would be impossible. I am satisfied with being. I am comfortable in this moment. It is a wonderful feeling. I am out of a spiral. I AM REAL!

I actually thought a small boy who was enthusiastically participating in praise and worship in the form of song-singing was cute in his naive childish glee -enthusiasm-. I am no longer the focal point of the universe. I feel so free and independent. I feel like myself. Nor could I previously of ever understood or relate to this, this euphoria that others must feel naturally. I understand why other people are comfortable in situations that would otherwise make me so tense.

It's like I used to think several things simultaneously. Stupid thoughts that I can't relate to now.

I feel. I am in my environment, I am soothed. I can feel my body. I can feel my tense muscles. I can feel the tenseness in my mouth, my jaw. I don't know why, It's habitual to tense my mouth. I feel fresh, so real. Everything feels so real.

It's like I can actually understand what people are saying. No need to block it out. I can't write enough to explain this feeling. I keep making attempts but I feel I can never totally express it.



----Right now, I think ADD medicine is a very very good thing, for people who really need it. I don't see how I functioned without it. Come to think of it, I didn't really function. So sorry this is so long, it's nearly a book. Maybe I am overly focused now... or perhaps it is merely because I am used to being disoriented... I have edited this post about 25 times by now (edit: by now, probably 40-50). Hopefully to help you analyze ADD, the disoreinted, disjointed, brief, erratic, incomplete nature of many of my previous posts could be compared to this, my extensively long and probably quite boring nearly-book about this matter. But I take pride in the fact that I do think that previously it would be quite impossible for me to construe this post. Those of you who are familiar with me, I imagine there is a recognizeable difference between this post and my typical posts. I imagine this post in itself is enough to illustrate the point of itself.----

It is now easy for me to take an idea and expand on it freely, and I am sorry for doing it so much, I now need to learn when I should stop. I believe this is the longest I have spent working on one post in a very long time. I apologize for anyone who found the length of it drudgry, and I commend anyone who made it through the whole thing and understands what I was trying to say.

[Insidious Rex]

all this after less then one day?

[Sminty_Smeagol]

All (of?) this what? All (of?) this difference? If so- Haha yes. I'm beginning to wonder if everything isn't just some placebo, and the only reason I am feeling so wonderful so quickly is because I am expecting to or something... maybe I am just imagining the difference... You find it suspicious that I am so different after only one day.

However I am pretty sure I remember my doctor telling me that the benefit of Adderol is that it is effective much more quickly in the initial treating period than some other drugs. I think he said it reaches its maximum effectiveness more rapidly than other ADD drugs, and it lets you know how it works more quickly than others. I am pretty sure that was Adderol he was speaking of.

I can't even imagine reading that 'essay' ^ ( ) in my regular state. If I am unnaturally focused/sedated or whatever, to a point beyond that of normal people, I apologize for the inconvenience caused by that post to anyone -if anyone even reads it all- who can't handle that much jabber at once. I don't often see other people editing one post for an hour and a half, so perhaps I'm not really in the natural state... Perhaps I am still experiencing life differently from mentally healthy people, just on the other extreme side of the scale as to how I usually am, in terms of focus, the norm assumedly being in the center... If so, would that be a good thing? Is it a linear equation that more focus=better? Will I never really have a gauge as to how others experience things? On the other hand, I may just be unaccustomed to this gift. If it really is a gift... maybe they're just feeding this stuff into me in order to brainwash me into becoming a sedated sausage, susceptable to actually doing school work (gasp!), and in fact perhaps even finding pleasure in it. They're manipulating my brain wiring so that I shall become a naive zombie!

It atleast helps me to understand the ways that some other people act, that I previously never really contemplated.

[Insidious Rex]

Well I just meant often times theres an adaption period of a few days to a few weeks where your body gets adept at utlizing the drug on a cellular level and the drug ramps up its effects accordingly. Perhaps this one is different somehow. who knows. if yer feeling better then thats all that matters. Just brace for any swing since you dont know the pattern of this drug yet.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Yeah I know. So far so good, except for my becoming a sedated, rewired, inanimate, sedentary sausage. Atleast the quirkiness isn't totally depleted yet . It is much better then the last time I tried Attention Deficit Disorder medication-Concerta, which caused me to be anxious and panicy and irritable... not to mention sick to the stomach. My father said that in his personal experience with Adderol (which he has been on for several years, and is currently taking) his only effects were not being able to sleep in the beginning of his pill-taking days; he also said that after a while of taking it you get accustomed to it and it becomes the norm. So I suppose I will no longer have this realization of the difference, and my perception will just be that of a sedated sausage. I should cherish this wonderful feeling of newness, of crossing over, being able to see the world and understand two perspectives at once.

Dave, do I sound smart?

Am I just becoming a brainwashed zombie sausage?

I feel kind of stupid, being so occupied with the same topic for so long. But so far I am not bored. I feel sort of slow and gradual and 'easily amused', perhaps because of the exaggerated difference from my normal erratic anxious self, but it is pleasant. It is a stimulant, right? So this silly conversation (well, with myself... so let's just say 'thoughts') is (are) very stimulating to me.

Have you noticed I have edited each of these posts? I have probably edited each one atleast 10 times. But the more I read over them the more I find things to which I can add and on them expand. It's endless.

I actually feel progressive in my thoughts (even though I am currently satisfied with this single topic... talk about long attention span- I'm stuck, heh).
But my writing must be perfect and clear, any flaws make me terribly uncomfortable. I need to write solidly now. I have spent nearly two hours (update: 2+ hours) solidifying and expanding and solidifying and expanding on a brief (in comparison to what it is now) post based upon some jots I did in hopes of expressing this feeling and to perhaps give understanding to anyone who may be curious (though it is a rather dull topic) and who may gain something from a very long, drawn out arrangement of (probably inaccurate) thoughts. I suppose it is a rather egotistical thing to do, as nobody should be interested in reading a rant of some sedated, stuck person such as myself, on a topic to which they probably assign little opinion. I am becoming a perfectionist, how terrible. At any rate, on Monday the fellow classmates will probably think they have succeeded in exorcizing Satan out of me, what with my very calm and steady persona which is quite the opposite of the usual paranoid, unstable little thing that is ADD-me (I suppose).


Have I become dull and goody-goody sounding?
Is this transformation a good thing, or has it made me into a very ranting, boring and annoying person (rather than a weird, uncomprehensible, unpredictable, annoying person)?
I can just see you sitting there, re-uploading the Entmoot general messages page, watching the view count go up and up as I continue to edit.
I am wondering how this will effect me in school. Perhaps they could just give me one assignment to work on one day... I can't imagine getting so into something and then having to stop and move on to the next. I would feel so incomplete.
*sigh* I feel so thorough and defined... And boring to anyone else who is not me. I just hope someone here is somewhat interested in what I am saying and that this is not TOTALLY useless. Perhaps I can print this into an essay and submit it to a class or something.

[Elvengirl]

Some data I found -

here
here here

Cocaine was once thought of as a medicine too. It was given out in doses daily. Now we all know the harmful affects of this drug Why would we want to be taking Ritalin and Adderol when they have the same effects upon our bodies?

A letter written by a person on Adderol

A success story written by awoman, but read the bottom

One of the many natural solutions here


That's all the time I have for now.....

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
Now for mental medication. I don't believe it can do anything postive for anyone. I believe that everyone has a spirit, mind, and body. Giving the body a pill to handle something that is supposed to be wrong in the mind would be the wrong action and the drug would only have negative affects upon the body.

That is a bit extreme, I could understand not giving medication to people with mild mental disorders. But people with severe mental disorders should be allowed the medication to help cope with their problem. I'm glad you aren't in a position of power.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

I took it again today... People said that I seemed more calm and talkative, 'chipper'. Some kid I've known all schoolyear said that today was the first time he was really getting to know me. I also began drawing again yesterdat, and some more today, which I had pretty much gone to a dead stop beforehand. And I have actually been able to write. Usually if I try to write or draw I give up or don't bother because I can't get my thoughts in order. A girl said that I seem more laid back... still myself, but calmer. And she said that I was talking a lot better and stuff, cuz I wasn't flying off the walls. And that I seemed smarter. Hm. Well I am enjoying the effects.

MEANWHILE: on the downside,
I slept about 3 hours last night (probably not entirely attributed to adderall, as I did consume a lot of soda from the drymouth), I feel a bit achy, I have no apetite, and my stomach hurts a bit from time to time. But I will keep taking the pills for a while to see if the side effects stop or improve.

In a way I feel sort of sedated I guess. But my natural un-medicated state is sedated in a way as well. I don't know if it's ADD or anxiety or what, they're probably related. It seems to be helping massively with my social anxiety and discomfort... I usually tend to block myself off because there is too much stimuli I can't handle in big noisy situations or social things. It's like now I can more or less follow a train of thought progressively instead of jumping around in conversations and being unable to stay one one thing. It's like, thoughts are supposed to flow, time is supposed to take place, but usually I am feeling everything all at once in each instant and I can't focus on any one thought. Very unpleasant feeling.

[Cirdan]

Sounds like your making good progress, Sminty. Adderall is a fairly strong amphetemine mixture so that would account for the sleeplessness and talkativeness. It sounds as though your dose might be a bit too high, so if you still have such side effects after a week or two I would ask for a lower dose. My son just had to increase his concerta; he outgrew the old dose. After just one day I can see a significant improvement in his focus and social involvement/participation.

Congratulations on feeling better.

[Sminty_Smeagol]

Hm... Does your son have any side effects from concerta? It was awful for me.

[Elvengirl]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
I'm glad you aren't in a position of power.

Look, I'm not going to get into an argument over this, but I'm not invalidating you for your opinions so I'd appreciate it if you didn't either.

IMO, I'm not exactly happy about the idea of living in a drugged society.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Sminty_Smeagol
Hm... Does your son have any side effects from concerta? It was awful for me.

It was actually better than adderall for him. Age and sex seem to make a difference as to what works well for each person.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
IMO, I'm not exactly happy about the idea of living in a drugged society.

We live in an artificial existence. Many things we depend on are not aesthetically desireable. Drugs that treat illnesses make life better for those that suffer.

Before you condemn others you should be ready to assess your life and what you depend on that can be considered detrimental to society (automobiles, electricity generated by coal burnng plants, plastics). Are there some things that have a down side but which also contribute to the general welfare? Can you see that a few "drugged" people that would otherwise be disfunctional is more desirable than a larger number of sober disfunctional people?

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Cirdan
Drugs that treat illnesses make life better for those that suffer.

while i agree in part... this is often a harder question than it appears... do they actually make life better?

i'd say sometimes yes, sometimes no

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
IMO, I'm not exactly happy about the idea of living in a drugged society. [/B]

No one is forcing you to take drugs. Its the own patient's choice and only the patient's decision unless he/she is unable to do so. If the patient can't then the person's family makes the decision. Then it becomes a question of morality. However, unless you are in that predicament, I don't think it is necessary to discuss it because its your own choice. This country is founded on liberty and freedom. Forcing people to do what you want and what is your own opinion does not seem democratic to me...