12-21-2005, 06:54 PM | #81 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
12-21-2005, 06:55 PM | #82 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
12-21-2005, 06:58 PM | #83 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
12-21-2005, 06:59 PM | #84 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-21-2005 at 07:06 PM. |
||
12-21-2005, 07:05 PM | #85 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
btw look at lotesse's opening post in this thread - i think lotsy is just defending the ACLU in general, not so much this christmas lunacy thing??? well ..yes i guess the 'redskins' is well dodgy - but these things can go too far - i HATE thought control - esp as i think the gaffer or BJ said before: when it is done on behalf of a minority that actually in general has no objection: ie muslims in ref to christians and non christians alike enjoying christmas - nor do we here in the uk have any problem with ede or ramadan or anything else - although to be fair the welsh never used to open their pubs on sunday ... but that's another matter |
|
12-21-2005, 07:14 PM | #86 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
You're right about that, BB, I AM definitely defending the ACLU in general. I am extremely grateful that such a Union exists in our fair country. The ACLU has done all KINDS of good for Americans, ALL KINDS!!!
And yes, every native american I know would love to eradicate calling ballteams after nicknames -perjorative or not- of their race. Redskins is pretty fricken' bad. It's basically the "N" word for native americans. So, good on the ACLU for helping to try & change that!!
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 12-21-2005 at 07:16 PM. |
12-21-2005, 07:18 PM | #87 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
*BB off topic shock*
mmm.... nearing the 4,000 mark there lotesse! and heh - haven't seen you in the lotr discussion project yet ... MUST be on topic there though! and you lief!! well, i better go read the rpg - and probably pm udu. |
12-21-2005, 07:44 PM | #88 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Separation of Church & State is not completely possible. Many of people's fundamental values are based upon their religion, or lack of religion. These values influence voters who influence governments, and presto, religion is already entwined with politics. Neither should we want it to be completely possible to separate Church and State. Do we want a state without values? Many of people's values come from their different belief systems. Do we want a state without belief systems? A state without "self-evident" truths? There have to be values in a state, for the state to be worthwhile. Thus, religion by necessity must be connected to politics to some extent. I think it would be an abominable evil to completely separate Church and State, or rather, values and state. It amounts to the same thing. I don't see a simple recognition of a religion's impact upon a society, such as a sign in the state seal, as a threat to a minority. Rather, it is simply an acknowledgement of a great historical and cultural influence. This is my own view .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
12-21-2005, 08:38 PM | #89 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
A. We do not live in Iraq; it is not our country. If you feel Iraq has such wonderful ideas about combining religion with government, then do you feel you might be more comfortable living iunder such a government? I certainly would NOT.
B. Separation of Church and State IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE, and gets better and better as time goes by, especially thanks to efforts by such groups as the ACLU. c. KEEP RELIGION OUT OF THE FREAKIN' GOVERNMENT!!! Religion has absolutely NO place in the Federal or State government. D. How the HELL did we get so off topic? E. I don't want to talk about this anymore.
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
12-21-2005, 09:56 PM | #90 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
Jews don't have missionaries :P Jews don't actively convert like christians do.
-------------- Not really sure where you are going with that last post Lief, are you saying that you want more religion in our government? Specifically Christian, endorsing christmas, then when we have Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics, etc ????? Or you just don't want remains of religion in government - which shouldn't be there - to be removed?
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
12-21-2005, 09:58 PM | #91 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
I know that! I was just trying to find a hypothetically comparative analogy to make; it was the IDEA I was trying to get across.
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
12-21-2005, 10:21 PM | #92 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Removal of a simple acknowledgement of a religion's impact upon a state's history and present-day culture, such as that mark on the seal, seems to fall into the category of battles not worth fighting (to me). I know, Lotesse, I just flat-out disagree with you on these points. Oh well . What else is new? At least we agree on the point about the specific example of Christmas. So how off-topic are we? We're sort of following an example of one of the ACLU's actions down to its roots, to see whether it was good or bad. That definitely can lead to falling off the precipice of on-topic . Are we already off it?
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-21-2005 at 10:23 PM. |
|
12-22-2005, 10:37 AM | #93 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
i think the problem is that many here are confusing issues that are brought up and challenged with issues that are actually made into law
the ACLU is an organization that allows citizens to challenge issues that concern civil liberties... issues they could probably not bring up themselves... we live in a country where, thankfully, all these questions can be put on the table some are valid issues and are put into law... some are not... in fact, i'd guess that many more of these cases fail then actually make it into law are the ACLU detractors proposing that we outlaw the ability to ask these questions?
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
12-22-2005, 12:53 PM | #94 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I am very glad the ACLU is allowed to do what it does. That doesn't mean I approve of what it does though, much of the time (though there have been some cases where they do very good things). RÃ*an made the thread about what we like and/or don't like about the ACLU, not about whether or not the ACLU should be legal.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
12-22-2005, 01:09 PM | #95 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I think we should be able to "ask these questions" - but I think the ACLU should evaluate the cases they take on more carefully, and ask the questions officially and legally only AFTER a lot more thought than they seem to currently be doing. Just the mere action of a powerful entity like the ACLU bringing a lawsuit against someone is sometimes enough to crush them - it's NOT a mere "asking a question". It sometimes destroys people - like how a little mom-and-pop restaurant can be shut down by someone in a wheelchair who doesn't like that there isn't good wheelchair access (and my son is in a wheelchair - I'm not saying this as someone who is not in that community). I think the ACLU has gone the way of the unions - a great idea to start, with good motives, but now in general, both are bullies whose morality has been twisted by power, IMO.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-22-2005 at 01:11 PM. |
12-22-2005, 01:29 PM | #96 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
12-22-2005, 01:35 PM | #97 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
|
I work for a union, and I don't think we're bullies. In fact, union workers, are only there to coordinate the members ('organising' model as opposed to 'servicing' model), and it is the actual members, the workers, on the worksites, who organise pay and work conditions on the ground. We're only there to support them. No bullying from us. ::shrug::
__________________
"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 12-22-2005 at 01:36 PM. |
12-22-2005, 05:07 PM | #98 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I said "in general". At least here in the US, there are some very questionable actions by unions, to say the least. We had a grocery workers' strike here a few years back, and my mom's friend, who was a replacement cashier, had her tires slashed. They were striking for better wages and benefits, when they already were making more than the teachers at my kid's private school. I think the turning point was when the store was finally allowed to advertise the wages for the workers, and people saw how much they already made.
And there are many instances of unions like the teachers' unions supporting very liberal causes with a lot of money, and it's not easy for those that don't want their money to go to support those causes, because they have ethical issues with them, to opt out. I think it was a good idea, and many are still good, but I think they've let power go to their heads, esp. groups like the Teamster's Union. Hopefully your unions are better - I'm just speaking of unions that I'm familiar with, the ones in the US.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-22-2005, 08:01 PM | #99 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
If there are very questionable actions by the unions, rest assured that there are equally or even MANY, many MORE very questionable practices and actions by the big corporations and by the Federal government. It is to protect the working person's/citizen's rights that unions exist, the unions fight for the rights of us all. Without the protection & help of organised unions, it would be us against the big, enormously powerful Them - and of course, They would always prevail. SO, I am VERY grateful for ALL the unions.
Here is a non-biased assessment of what Labor Unions do, for those who would appreciate a definition here... http://slac.rso.wisc.edu/what_do_they_do.html http://www.bized.ac.uk/compfact/tuc/tuc16.htm And here's a link to the ACLU website, which has their mission statement & everything... http://www.aclu.com/about/index.html
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 12-22-2005 at 08:14 PM. |
12-22-2005, 08:45 PM | #100 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||