NEWS-girl killed by mechanic in FL.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
No- because it's pretty clear that when people post here - most of the time they are pointing the finger at the US.

I really don't think people criticize the US as much as you suspect. When someone talks about a policy that the US happens to have, they aren't directing their statement at you necessarily.
We all know the US isn't the only country who has a death penalty.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I really don't think people criticize the US as much as you suspect. When someone talks about a policy that the US happens to have, they aren't directing their statement at you necessarily.
We all know the US isn't the only country who has a death penalty.

Yes that would be true if so many people in Europe didn't demonstrate when some one in the US is about to be executed. Amazingly they seem to always be quiet when the execution is taking place in a country other than the US

[Nurvingiel]

I didn't know Europeans protested when you have an execution. This caused me to look for a list of all countries who still have it. Though a lot of executions occur in the US, from what I found on the Amnesty International site, China and Iran have more. Yugoslavia and Russia are the only European countries on the list. Maybe they don't get protested because they're not in the EU.

Countries who still have the death penalty:

AFGHANISTAN
ALGERIA
ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA
ARMENIA
BAHAMAS
BAHRAIN
BANGLADESH
BARBADOS
BELARUS
BELIZE
BENIN
BOTSWANA
BURKINA FASO
BURUNDI
CAMEROON
CHAD
CHILE
CHINA
COMOROS
CONGO (Democratic Republic)
CUBA
DOMINICA
EGYPT
EQUATORIAL GUINEA
ERITREA
ETHIOPIA
GABON
GHANA
GUATEMALA
GUINEA
GUYANA
INDIA
INDONESIA
IRAN
IRAQ
JAMAICA
JAPAN
JORDAN
KAZAKSTAN
KENYA
KUWAIT
KYRGYZSTAN
LAOS
LEBANON
LESOTHO
LIBERIA
LIBYA
MALAWI
MALAYSIA
MAURITANIA
MONGOLIA
MOROCCO
MYANMAR
NIGERIA
NORTH KOREA
OMAN
PAKISTAN
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
PHILIPPINES
QATAR
RUSSIAN FEDERATION
RWANDA
SAINT CHRISTOPHER AND NEVIS
SAINT LUCIA
SAINT VINCENT AND GRENADINES
SAUDI ARABIA
SIERRA LEONE
SINGAPORE
SOMALIA
SOUTH KOREA
SUDAN
SWAZILAND
SYRIA
TAIWAN
TAJIKISTAN
TANZANIA
THAILAND
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO
TUNISIA
TURKMENISTAN
UGANDA
UKRAINE
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
UZBEKISTAN
VIET NAM
YEMEN
YUGOSLAVIA (Federal Republic)
ZAMBIA
ZIMBABWE

List from here.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know everyone, there is a death penalty thread floating around here somewhere. We are somewhat off topic, and it is expected in this case, but we need to focuss a bit more on the topic and includee it in the discussion.

[Dúnedain]

Isn't the death penalty also contingent upon each State? I mean, there are some states here in the US without the death penalty right? I'm trying to remember, but I can't remember if that's the way it is or not. I think it is, can someone corroborate this?

[Nurvingiel]

Sorry SGH, see you all in the "Death Sentence" thread!

[Sister Golden Hair]

I believe that's correct Dunedain. I know Ohio had no death penalty for several years and then it was reinstated in the late 70's early 80's IIRc.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Sorry SGH, see you all in the "Death Sentence" thread!

No problem really Nirv. It's understandable that a thread like this would evolve into this discussion. It just needs to be more about Carlie and Joe Smith and the crime and what we know happened so far, than the death penalty. We haven't reached that point in this case yet, or even come to trial.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Isn't the death penalty also contingent upon each State? I mean, there are some states here in the US without the death penalty right? I'm trying to remember, but I can't remember if that's the way it is or not. I think it is, can someone corroborate this?

Yes - that is true. It is a STATE issue. The states themselves decide on the death penalty. Some states have the death penalty - others do not.

States with the death penalty...
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
California
Colorado
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maryland
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Mexico
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Virginia
Washington
Wyoming

States with death penalty but no executions since 1976...
Connecticut - 1960
Kansas - ?
New Hampshire - 1939
New Jersey - 1963
New York - 1963
South Dakota - ?

States without the death penalty..
Alaska
Hawaii
Iowa
Maine
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
North Dakota
Rhode Island
Vermont
West Virginia
Wisconsin

Originally posted by
Nurvingiel

I didn't know Europeans protested when you have an execution. This caused me to look for a list of all countries who still have it. Though a lot of executions occur in the US, from what I found on the Amnesty International site, China and Iran have more. Yugoslavia and Russia are the only European countries on the list. Maybe they don't get protested because they're not in the EU.

Your reasoning about Russia and Yugaslavia not being demonstrated against by Europeans while the US is only makes sense if the US was part of the EU. Last time I checked the US had NOTHING to do with the European Union and was not a part of it.

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah I know, I explained what I meant better in the "Death sentence thread".

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Just currious if you have these figures or if you're just throwing out a question to continue a conversation here.

No I don't have these figures. I was trying to continue the conversation in general terms, the general point being that it is inevitable that mistakes are made (the wonders of modern science notwithstanding) and therefore we will execute innocent people at some point, and we won't know when.

Unfortunately, some people (not you, Ruinel) seem to be incapable of discussing these things without taking it as a national slur.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Unfortunately, some people (not you, Ruinel) seem to be incapable of discussing these things without taking it as a national slur.

Whatever Gaffer. Too bad some people have to resort to under the breath comments.

I can discuss it if it wasn't always argued how terrible the US is for having the death penalty by outsiders who don't even understand our laws.

[Millane]

Originally posted by sun-star
Actually the opposite is true. Our justice system (by which I mean that in the West, before anyone gets all nationalistic) is designed as far as is humanly possible to remove emotion from the process - hence trial by jury, double jeopardy, the right of appeal etc. Of course that doesn't always work, and of course some politicians will always try to whip up public feeling to make a law*. But we should and we do try to keep emotion out of the treatment of offenders.

no im going beyond that, as some people might know im more into philosophy than politics and so most of my arguments wont be set in concrete more ideas... i meant a lot of laws are based from emotion meaning a bit further back than what your thinking, i think that for instance that considering rape as a crime is based on emotions would you agree? and as such how can you judge it without emotion?

I can discuss it if it wasn't always argued how terrible the US is for having the death penalty by outsiders who don't even understand our laws.

im not meaning to "gang up" on you but you brought the US into it, most people arent here to have a lets-bash-america session, here is a quote i think is relevant to you JD (ironically by you )
"If people would stop trying to find offence in everything - they may find that most people are NOT offensive nor racist. If a person searches for it around every corner - they are bound to perceive it where none actually exists."-jerseydevil
i think if you replace the words "offensive nor racist" with "anti-american" you will get the idea

[The Gaffer]

No doubt lots of people have clearer thoughts than I do on this topic, but here's what I think:

1) In order to be just, the law should be consistent, that is it should be applied in the same way for everyone.
2) Emotions are, by definition, subjective.
3) Different people have different emotional reactions to the same situation.
4) Therefore, laws based on emotions would be inconsistent, and therefore unjust.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by rape being an emotional crime; I think that people who've been victims of it would disagree.

[Millane]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
I'm not quite sure what you mean by rape being an emotional crime; I think that people who've been victims of it would disagree.

ohhhh sorry my bad im not saying at all that rapists actions are emotional, but that we say rape is wrong based upon emotions therefore i dont see how you can judge a rapist without using emotion since you already have by saying that rape is wrong, back to philosophy, theres a dialogue in the Gorgias between Socrates and Callicles where Callicles talks about origins of morals and laws, saying why convention is wrong the majority of our laws are taken from convention and i agree with Callicles that convention is based upon emotions... sorry, it makes sense in my head hahahaha

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
"If people would stop trying to find offence in everything - they may find that most people are NOT offensive nor racist. If a person searches for it around every corner - they are bound to perceive it where none actually exists."-jerseydevil
i think if you replace the words "offensive nor racist" with "anti-american" you will get the idea

I would agree with your "anti-American" comment if I hadn't withnessed it for the passed two years. Happily it's reduced itself quite a bit on Entmoot. But stiill there is a lot of finger pointing and erroneous comments made about the US - THAT is what I am commenting on.

I never used the "Anti-American" label. I just said I was tired of outsiders criticizing the US for our internal affairs when they have no understanding of our laws. Most non-Americans had no idea about state laws and how the death penalty and other laws were determined by the states and NOT by the federal government.

As far as I'm concerned - it's up to Florida to determine what happens to the killer. I'll worry about New Jersey - that is where I live.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
No doubt lots of people have clearer thoughts than I do on this topic, but here's what I think:

1) In order to be just, the law should be consistent, that is it should be applied in the same way for everyone.
2) Emotions are, by definition, subjective.
3) Different people have different emotional reactions to the same situation.
4) Therefore, laws based on emotions would be inconsistent, and therefore unjust.

Hence - the death penalty can only be given after the person is determined to be guilty without a doubt and then the sentencing has to be a unanimous decision by the jury - at least in NJ.

As you said - different people have different emotional reactions. This factor is minimized by requiring a unanimous decision by the jury.

I went through the process for being a juror on a death penalty case and I learned a lot about what it takes.

[Millane]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I would agree with your "anti-American" comment if I hadn't withnessed it for the passed two years. Happily it's reduced itself quite a bit on Entmoot. But stiill there is a lot of finger pointing and erroneous comments made about the US - THAT is what I am commenting on.

well im sure you wouild agree that the US is probably the most controversial country hence more people would be more opinionated about the US than other countries...

I never used the "Anti-American" label.

conveniant word.

I just said I was tired of outsiders criticizing the US for our internal affairs when they have no understanding of our laws. Most non-Americans had no idea about state laws and how the death penalty and other laws were determined by the states and NOT by the federal government.

most of the people that are against the death penalty would not care who decided if a crim was to die, the more important and more objectionable fact is that the crim is going to die. dont worry i know its frustrating i hear a lot of anti Manson rubbish and it does get me annoyed

As far as I'm concerned - it's up to Florida to determine what happens to the killer. I'll worry about New Jersey - that is where I live.

well its nice to know that your sense of juctice and morality restricts itself to New Jersey

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Millane
well im sure you wouild agree that the US is probably the most controversial country hence more people would be more opinionated about the US than other countries...

Wow - most controversial? I think you made my point about the erroneous and ignorant comments about the world's view of the US. Too many people in this world seem to turn a blind eye to anything that isn't going on in the US and just gives other countries a free ride. Most controversial? How is that?

conveniant word.

yes - and many people like to throw that word around everytime I say anything in defense against erroneous and deragatory comments made toward the US.

most of the people that are against the death penalty would not care who decided if a crim was to die, the more important and more objectionable fact is that the crim is going to die. dont worry i know its frustrating i hear a lot of anti Manson rubbish and it does get me annoyed

That is their opinion to have objections - but it is the will of the people who is deciding and there are MANY checks and balances in the process. Unlike in Iran, China, north Korea, etc. The many places that people outside the US try to lump us in with.

well its nice to know that your sense of juctice and morality restricts itself to New Jersey

Too bad the rest of the world had no care WHATSOEVER of the millions of people who were dying at the hands of Hussein (even AFTER Gulf War I). If people outside the US cared about the Iraqis being killed, or the North Koreans or the many other people throughout the world who are killed by brutal dictators - then they can give me a speech about the death penalty outside NJ. But hey - most of the demonstrations around the world amazingly weren't directed at Hussein - they were directed at Bush and the US. So much for THEIR care of morality and justice. I think there is a very big double standard when the world looks at morality and justice between the US and the rest of the world.

now - can we get back onto the subject of the killing in Florida.

BTW - I mentioned this to SGH tonight - I find it funny how many people on this board are outraged by the death penalty and people suggesting torture for carlie's killer - yet some of these same people have spoken about torture for pedophilias and sexual predators.

[The Gaffer]

Your point being?