LOTR Ripoff

[Tar-Elendil]

Originally posted by Kallasilya
I think you are just imagining it... well actually there are quite a lot of similarities on the surface, but (having read both books), they are written in completely different styles, for different target groups of people. The characters may be similar in appearance, but some things are universal, like the portrayal of evil and wise old men

i totally agree with you on the some part..but as far as Hp goes it is most ..my opinion

[Radagast The Brown]

amm... I agree with Kallasilya too. Tolkien writes his books with more information on the look of places andpeople and high words and Rowling writes her books with less writing on how they look like, she writes more on the frame-up.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

So they're different styles. We knew this. That doesn't mean the characters and some of the story line aren't similiar. Not that Harry Potter is a rip-off of LotR.

[Radagast The Brown]

If they're written in different styles we will enjoy of them differently. Not that I'm saying that they have similiar characters... I'm just saying that they are different in this too.

[Hobbette]

Hi. I'm new here, and don't have too much to add to this thread (after all, there are already FIVE pages of replies -- how much more could there be?!). I've read LOTR (of course) and the four HP books, and loved them all. While I don't like to hear that people don't like HP, I'm glad to see that those people have at least *read* Harry Potter. I had a debate with someone who tried to tell me that HP is *evil* and he won't let his daughters read it. But he's never read any of the HP books! So how would he know? Don't just make an argument based on heresay...

[Cirdan]

I read all four of the Harry Potter series to my son. JKR is a descent story teller but a terrible writer in the strictly technical sense. The repetative adverb abuse like "he said angrily", "he said nevously" etc. The foreshadowing is like a sledgehammer. Everything is linear in exposition.

But, the stories are a wonderful primer for new readers to fantasy. JKR has characters that are in some ways more complex than many of the JRRT. Heresy yes, but JRRTs bad guys are all but wearing 'I'm Evil" buttons. Snape is interesting as a figure twisted by his struggle with good and evil intentions. Remember, except for some of the mythical creatures (witches and wizards looking like goth humans) the characters are uncertain in motive except for the protagonist and antagonist.

HP is simple and slick in some ways. JRRT is a classic that will be read so long as readers exist. JKR and HP will become an anachronism, eventually. JRRT's work is self contained in a separate world complex and astonishingly beautiful.

As to the topic, there are some very strong cases for less than "honest inspiration" in HP, but to little to matter. What if Shakespeare was off limits? We would be missing a good deal of entertaining literature. There is no such thing as too many books, just not enough time to read them all.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Hobbette
(after all, there are already FIVE pages of replies -- how much more could there be?!).

Much more. Welcome to the moot!

[Nienna Grey]

I have read all the Harry Potter books and have enjoyed them very much but IMHO there are too many similarities for it to be mere coincidence.

The dementors are an obvious example but also you have the Whomping Willow which is like Old Man Willow and then the giant spider (sorry, can't remember its name) which is obviously like Shelob. Dumbledore is based on Gandalf, Sirius and Strider are similar, then there's the Mirror of Erised.

And let's face it, is Voldemort not incredibly like Sauron? He's even in disembodied form just like Sauron!

I agree that the HP books are a good introduction into the world of fantasy. Many young readers will start with them and then move on to LOTR, which is great.

[BeardofPants]

Nah. The dementors are only similar in that they wear black clothing for eru's sake. It's a common device for an author to employ. Tolkien was not the first to develop blacked clothed nasties, or bad tempered trees, giant spiders, not-so-obvious heroes, and wise men from out of the district. For more information on common markers, Joseph Campbell's 1000 faces makes for a good read - have just started it myself. Now: the question is, who did Tolkien pilfer off?

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Nienna Grey
The dementors are an obvious example but also you have the Whomping Willow which is like Old Man Willow and then the giant spider (sorry, can't remember its name) which is obviously like Shelob. Dumbledore is based on Gandalf, Sirius and Strider are similar, then there's the Mirror of Erised.

I agree with BoP. There are so many stories that have bad strong character and that the hero of the story fight with, Giant Spiders and bad characters with black clothing. Tolkien wasn't the first writer that wrote this.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Now: the question is, who did Tolkien pilfer off?

Everything! Well, not quite, but he used a lot of sources. Beowulf, Norse mythology, Welsh mythology. . .to name a few. I'm sure there are other people here who know more about than I do, though.

[osszie]

Mrs Rowling certainly ripped off a name from Tolkiens work. See if you can spot a famous Rowling character in this excerpt from The Hobbit (the poem is called Errantry)

He battled with the Dumbledors,
the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees,
and won the Golden Honeycomb,
and running home on sunny seas,
in ship of leaves and gossamer,
with blossom for a canopy,
he sat and sang, and furbished up,
and burnished up his panoply.


I wonder if the Tolkien Estate has spotted this yet?

[BeardofPants]

It is pretty similar, but not exactly. She used Dumbledore. But then Dumbledore is old english for Bumblebee.........

[osszie]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
It is pretty similar, but not exactly. She used Dumbledore. But then Dumbledore is old english for Bumblebee.........

Damn there goes my % of a copyright violation lawsuit

A curse on on-line dictionaries for not knowing Dumbledore is a Bumblebee

[Radagast The Brown]

JK Rowling didn't copy from tolkien. She just didn't. She didn't read LOTR then. And LOTR was the beginner of the DND, so many people used his writings and creatures and names for their books. Simple.

[samwiselvr2008]

Quote from my teacher, "The Hobbit was the classic. Every fantacy book after that was off of Tolkien."

At least, that is what she says, don't yell at me for that!

[Radagast The Brown]

If that what she thinks, I don't care. but I'm disagree, of course.

[IronParrot]

Um, it's true that all modern fantasy, all of it, owes something to Tolkien.

However, it's important to note that there is a huge, huge difference between "ripoff" and "influence". Nobody can realistically deny that works such as Rowling's Harry Potter have been heavily influenced by LOTR's complete redefinition of the realm of fantasy literature.

However, to take a look at where these influences are observable, and to conclude that the work is a "ripoff", is simply ridiculous.

I'm not going to go into detail right now, but on this thread I also see a lot of ignorance about how copyright laws work...

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree. I defenately agree.

[Silverstripe]

Originally posted by Menelvagor
Yeah, I noticed that too. Also Strider and Sirius have strikeingly similar roles (shadowy guy in bree/convict and murderer turn out to be gaurdian figures), the Mirror of Galadriel vs. the Mirror of Arised, and Saruman and Wormtail are both the sidekick mini-baddie and both of them have a white/silver hand. All it shows is what a big impact Tolkien had on the fantasy genre, all of those characters/concepts have become the norm, they are part of the definition of fantasy.

Nah, Wormtail isn't really Saruman, he seems more like Grima Wormtongue. Scary, isn't it?