Philosophy

[katya]

I'm officially following this thread now. There's a few things I wanted to comment on a couple pages back, but I'll resist for now. About those absolutes though...

I'm starting to become a bit of a pantheist. I wrote a term paper on pantheism and won myself over with it. If I was more sure of myself, my opinion might go like this: "I believe that the only absolute is God, who is everything." Replace God with Brahman, Tao, non-divine "everything", whatever your preference. "everything" is a little bit more than just the totality of everything in the universe but... I'm not sure how to describe it. I think it's beyond description or knowledge. 'Course I agree with BJ about not knowing anything for sure. Including whether I know or not or anything. But I gotta have some sorta guess.

My other favorite absolute is absolute zero but I can't remember why. But I had this preoccupation with giving temperature in Kelvins for a while.

Half of me believes in love as the most important and beautiful thing ever but the other half of me believes that pure love or compassion is impossible and it's just very very well disguised ego/selfishness/fear/etc. It depends on my mood. My beliefs and my personality are hardly absolute either.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by katya

Half of me believes in love as the most important and beautiful thing ever but the other half of me believes that pure love or compassion is impossible and it's just very very well disguised ego/selfishness/fear/etc. It depends on my mood. My beliefs and my personality are hardly absolute either.

I've come to believe that the most important human emotion is not love, but empathy, as in understanding and entering into another person's feelings.

[katya]

Yes, i equate that with love. That and really truly wishing people happiness without selfish motives. Something like that.

[Mari]

I believe everyone is ultimately selfish, but I don't see that as bad.

[katya]

Sometimes I think so too, sometimes I think maybe there's something more that we're capable of. Other times I think there's just a sort of scale, like seeing someone happy makes me happy because I empathize with them, which is selfish too but not so much as thinking you want someone to be happy because then they'll love you. I don't know.

I'm starting to think something else too, more along the lines of "does it benefit people". It doesn't matter if you're doing the housework and being benevolent to people for selfish reasons- if it benefits the household it's a noble deed. Type thing.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by katya

My other favorite absolute is absolute zero but I can't remember why. But I had this preoccupation with giving temperature in Kelvins for a while.

I don't believe in absolute zero.

[brownjenkins]

Everyone is ultimately selfish, with everything they do. But, there is a difference between being selfish in an intelligent and empathic way, thinking longterm and big picture, and being selfish in a more instant-gratification kind of way.

If you truely understand the society you live in, you realize that what is best for yourself coincides with what is best for society.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Everyone is ultimately selfish, with everything they do. But, there is a difference between being selfish in an intelligent and empathic way, thinking longterm and big picture, and being selfish in a more instant-gratification kind of way.

If you truely understand the society you live in, you realize that what is best for yourself coincides with what is best for society.

Oh, PLEEESE! Why ever would that be?

Best for me, for example, would be tree-ripe fruit delivered daily. I can assure you, that would be awesome for me. Awesome for you, too, I'd bet. Unfortunately, it requires an awful lot of petroleum to get it to me.

So. Shall I support Chilean fruit farmers, or not? Shall I buy organic, or local? Should I insist on union produce? Should I freeze fruit in season, or buy frozen fruit? Even applying "long term thinking" and "empathy" to the issue of what I have for dinner doesn't give me ONE answer, it gives me a cascading series of trade-offs.

And I have a set of standards that overlaps with yours pretty well. What if I had a different set?

Won't work. It's too vague.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Mari

I believe everyone is ultimately selfish, but I don't see that as bad.

What about people who give up their lives for other people? That's the ultimate act of love, and most people don't do it with the purpose of gaining goods for themselves.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What about people who give up their lives for other people? That's the ultimate act of love, and most people don't do it with the purpose of gaining goods for themselves.

That word is your insertion. "Selfish" would still apply to the garnering of good will, or forgiveness, if motivated by self, as well as the advancement of a cherished end. "Goods" aren't the only selfish motivators.

[Mari]

Can't love be selfish according to you then? I want to be loved, so I give love first hoping someone will return "the favour". Nothing wrong with that.
And giving your life for other people... How many people are truly giving their lives up for the sake of others? Isn't it more often that people give up their lives for their own believes or ideologies proclaiming that their ideas are for the sake of everyone else?
I don't think that being selfish is always a conscious action though.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Love is a condition where another's welfare is more important to you than your own. As such, it has selfish possibilities.

It's good, though.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Even applying "long term thinking" and "empathy" to the issue of what I have for dinner doesn't give me ONE answer, it gives me a cascading series of trade-offs.

I didn't say that there was one answer. It's an individual thing. But, the fact that you can even ponder the longterm trade-offs and try to make a decision with them in mind says a lot.

Many intelligent people can not even do that.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

That word is your insertion. "Selfish" would still apply to the garnering of good will, or forgiveness, if motivated by self, as well as the advancement of a cherished end. "Goods" aren't the only selfish motivators.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mari

Can't love be selfish according to you then? I want to be loved, so I give love first hoping someone will return "the favour". Nothing wrong with that.

I think that that is one form of love, but there are also others. For instance, there is agape, sacrificial love, love that is freely given without thought of receiving anything in return, even including thanks. It will also sacrifice for others.

There are often self-serving aspects to love, but some love is far beyond such things.

Originally Posted by Mari

And giving your life for other people... How many people are truly giving their lives up for the sake of others?

Firefighters and policemen do it a lot. Many people involved in our armed forces are doing this also.

Originally Posted by Mari

Isn't it more often that people give up their lives for their own believes or ideologies proclaiming that their ideas are for the sake of everyone else?

I don't know about that being "more often." However, if people believe that their ideas help others and then they die for those ideas, then they are dying for the sake of others too, in their own way.

Originally Posted by Mari

I don't think that being selfish is always a conscious action though.

I definitely agree.

[BeardofPants]

But Leif, those people are being PAID to do a job. That dying is a possibility is very often built into additional benefits that come with that type of job. So, are they really being unselfish ?

Additionally, things like armed forces are working towards spreading some kind of ideology, right? Not exactly unselfish.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

But Leif, those people are being PAID to do a job. That dying is a possibility is very often built into additional benefits that come with that type of job. So, are they really being unselfish ?

Many have engaged in acts of great heroism at risk of their own lives. If job benefits and money were what they were thinking of, I don't think we'd see that much. I'm convinced that many enter those jobs with the purpose of doing humanity a favor and saving lives.

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Additionally, things like armed forces are working towards spreading some kind of ideology, right? Not exactly unselfish.

Many in the armed forces are there because they want to protect American lives. But as regards those are there because they want to spread democracy or freedom, they too are risking their lives to try to help other people. You may not agree with what they are doing, but their motives still put (from their perspective) the wellbeing of others ahead of their own.

[katya]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

What about people who give up their lives for other people? That's the ultimate act of love, and most people don't do it with the purpose of gaining goods for themselves.

I think a lot of people who sacrifice their lives or commit suicide don't really understand the finality of death. Likewise I think anyone who cares at all what happens at their funeral or with their corpse doesn't understand death. I think a lot of people do somewhere deep down inside want to see the people they left behind say "He/She was so brave, to give their life!" or something of the sort.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by katya

I think a lot of people who sacrifice their lives or commit suicide don't really understand the finality of death. Likewise I think anyone who cares at all what happens at their funeral or with their corpse doesn't understand death.

That's a good point, and I agree that that's true with some people. Yet even for those who do believe in afterlife, we still love our lives here and the sacrifice is still immense. Not for suicides, perhaps, since they usually do not love their lives.

Originally Posted by katya

I think a lot of people do somewhere deep down inside want to see the people they left behind say "He/She was so brave, to give their life!" or something of the sort.

With some, that may be true. But I strongly believe many people who do this do so out of a genuine, enormous compassion for others. Ego is more of a side-feeling for many, rather than a primary motivator.

You guys are all so cynical!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You guys are all so cynical!

Only if you insist on defining selfishness as a bad thing. I think the type of selfishness we all have, the longterm kind, is perfectly normal.

[katya]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That's a good point, and I agree that that's true with some people. Yet even for those who do believe in afterlife, we still love our lives here and the sacrifice is still immense. Not for suicides, perhaps, since they usually do not love their lives.

With some, that may be true. But I strongly believe many people who do this do so out of a genuine, enormous compassion for others. Ego is more of a side-feeling for many, rather than a primary motivator.

You guys are all so cynical!

I'm not that cynical. I'm actually quite the romantic optimist. And I agree with you, pretty much. Selfish or not, giving your life for someone is still quite a thing. That same ego that wants a reward for it is fighting very strongly to keep you alive and well. It's admirable, I think, depending on the circumstances of course.