11-01-2008, 10:59 AM | #81 |
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Fascinating thread full of wonderful views and insights. One of our best!
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11-05-2008, 05:25 AM | #82 |
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11-07-2008, 03:29 PM | #83 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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I have to admit that the last time we fought this over at SF_Fandom, we went over 30 pages and we lost several members - and I lost a personal friend.
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11-08-2008, 11:13 AM | #84 |
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11-09-2008, 12:20 PM | #85 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Basically, that it was Merrry's blow that did in the W-K and that Eowyn's blow was superfluous, as he had already been killed by Merry. We even went into the deep meaning of "knit his unseen sinews to his will", which to me means that the W-K was paralysed, temporarily, most likely, and that it was Eowyn's blow that finally sent him wailing back to Sauron. But, let me warn you, other views exist.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
11-10-2008, 08:40 AM | #86 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Hmm... The blow delivered by Merry (behind the WK's knee) was certainly painful and temporarily crippling, but I can't imagine it would be mortal, magic or no magic. There had to be someone else to finish the job and fulfill the prophecy.
For one thing, we have clear data from the RC "Hunt for the Ring" that at Weathertop the nazgul did recognize the Barrow-Blades and feared them. How would they know of such blades and their danger if not a single nazgul - ever- had been wounded by such a blade? But if any wound by such a blade were mortal, then we would have had one nazgul less. Yet, here they are - all the nine - hale and sound. Thus, I guess, one of them had been wounded, but recovered. And, most likely, it had been the WK himself during the Angmar wars. |
11-10-2008, 02:58 PM | #87 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Hmmm, good point. I woud imagine Merry's Barrow-Blade to be the forbear of those many magic swords that paralyse the opponent for a variable period of time, before the spell wore off. Michael Martinez once wrote a highly enlightenening essay on the components of Middle-earth magic: there was a somatic component, e.g. stabbing the W-K, laying the blade over the hobbits' neck, grasping the door in Moria, followed by a verbalcomponent, exemplified by the Wight's curse and the "counterspell" of the Balrog, of which we know little. In this case, the verbal component would be Eowyn's defiance, followed by the somatic component of Merry's stabbling of the W-K, ended by Eowyn's blow. I pointed out at the time that Eowyn had to hit something, or her blade would not have been consumed, not she so afflicted by the Black Breath.
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. Last edited by Attalus : 11-10-2008 at 03:00 PM. Reason: spelling |
11-10-2008, 03:53 PM | #88 | |
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Could it not be, speculating once more, that the barrow-blades have been tested and found lethal on those lesser wraiths? While the Nazgûl were far more powerful, their nature would not have been very much different of the other wraiths. It would make sense the smiths of Arnor had something other than Nazgûl to test their blades on. I really doubt the Barrow-blades are just a lucky find, there must have been a long metallurgic process of trail and error beforehand.
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11-11-2008, 11:51 AM | #89 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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Surely you'd think that they (Numenorians) had knowledge of this arcane art? They had most information at that time, when we talk about the post-Numenorian- time. After the fall of Arnor, the knowledge certainly diminished along with the greatest of the Men. So I'd say it only took 2-4 tries. Had the blades been done at the near end of Third Age, it would have required the help of the Elves to research them that quickly - and without them, it certainly would have taken (for example) the Rangers a much longer time and many more tries. 'Tis just my humble view.
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11-11-2008, 01:50 PM | #90 |
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Before Merry and Eowyn? When?
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11-11-2008, 02:28 PM | #91 |
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I don't know exactly when, but it has to be so, since all the blades that stab him break - I think this includes ordinary steel and magical steel. So they both have been tested, and so we know that even a magical blade is broken in contact with him.
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11-11-2008, 02:32 PM | #92 |
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Based on the Aragorn quote. Got it. Very reasonable interpretation.
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11-11-2008, 06:34 PM | #93 | ||||
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I don't know about the WK being exactly "paralyzed" by Merry's blow: I have an impression that any living man being stabbed behind the knee would have fallen to his knees and remained incapacitated for quite some time, just because of the pain. Maybe the BD blade was magical not because the wounds it caused were unusually grave, but simply because of the fact that it allowed to wound the wraith in the same way as if he were a mere Man stricken by a normal blade. It may well be that an ordinary blade (or an arrow) disintegrates at the first contact with the nazgul blood, so the nazgul would never get more than a scratch, easy to heal. The BD blade perishes also, but it burns much later - after doing the damage. And note that the BD blade perishes some considerable time after it had been used (Merry had time to speak with Theoden, to see Eomer and the mumakil and only then he noticed his sword was burning: Quote:
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With that, it becomes even more confusing. |
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11-11-2008, 08:29 PM | #94 |
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The Elves, and the Eldar in particular, could see into the wraith-world, “the other side,” as Gandalf put it to Frodo when he awoke in Elrond’s house. Any surviving M*rdain would have described, as best they could, what had transpired in Eregion, and what they had constructed under the tutelage of “Annatar.” That would have given the other Noldor some idea about what they were dealing with as far as the Seven and Nine were concerned, although, as Gandalf told Frodo in Hobbiton, “there is only one Power in this world that knows all about the Rings and their effects,” meaning that only Sauron really knew how they worked.
I think we can infer that Sauron, the Necromancer, was misusing connections to “the other side” – the wraith-world – to alter how the Elves aged, to slow the effects of Time on them and on their surroundings. I doubt Tolkien ever bothered to work out how this necromancy functioned, only that it did; as a side effect, it pulled Mortals into the wraith-world, extending their lives in Arda “like butter that has been scraped over too much bread,” but causing them to “fade” physically just as the Elves “faded” in Middle-earth, though much more rapidly. However the Rings functioned, the Dúnedain and Elves also had to deal with the barrow-wights, which existed in the wraith-world, too. I think the context of finding the wraith-injuring “barrow blades” (there were at least 4 of them – Frodo’s was broken by the Witch-king at the Ford of Bruinen, apparently by a spell – and maybe more in the barrow from which Bombadil freed the hobbits) in the barrow of Cardolan’s last prince indicates that the folk of that kingdom made them; in any case, the Northern Dúnedain made them for fighting, well, wraiths, including barrow-wights. The Númenórean smiths had to get their information on how to deal with these awful critters from some source, and the Eldar, as well as bad experience, seem the only likely sources. I wouldn’t imagine the Nazgûl, the barrow-wights, or any other evil spirits would be too forthcoming with information on how Men might harm them. Last edited by Alcuin : 11-11-2008 at 08:32 PM. |
11-12-2008, 07:36 AM | #95 | |||||
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And forging weapons was still necessary as the Arnorian kingdoms were often at war, be it with Angmar or themselves. So forging weapons against enemies, corporeal or not-quite-so, would have been a reasonable field of study. How would you conclude out of the fact that knowledge would have been diminished that finding the anti-wraith swords only took a try or four? Quote:
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11-13-2008, 04:20 AM | #96 | |||||
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1. That the WK had been known to be wounded before Weathertop. 2. It had happened at least twice (to allow for generalization -all blades) That's how I have understood NEL's words, at least. Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 11-13-2008 at 04:26 AM. |
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11-13-2008, 11:34 AM | #97 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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And Eärniel, I think that you overdo it. What I say I mean; it's difficult to lead anything correct from what I say, cause there are no hidden thoughts in my words. I speak straight and more or less true. No offense, pal.
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11-13-2008, 12:19 PM | #98 | |
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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11-13-2008, 12:28 PM | #99 | |
Leaf-Crowned Lord Of Elvenpath
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... wait, you're an Elf? Hello, cousin! I wish I knew a Sindarin "Hello"...
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11-13-2008, 12:37 PM | #100 |
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Mae Govannon!
I don't know how at all, but I suspect Nenya is capable of more hurricanes and Thranduil is rumored to have some power of his own.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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