11-25-2002, 10:23 AM | #81 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The second passage is an interesting detail of the nature of Men. Here they are the only beings free from the fates. Yet even they cannot escape the eventual destiny of Middle Earth. This fatalism of the earlier version of the story is quite a bit stronger than the final version. Whether it is an edit of literary content or a change of philosophy to the final version in the Silmarillion is impossible to say. Many of the stories in the Book(s) of Lost Tales are much greater in detail. The stories are also told as a narrative within a larger tale. If you enjoyed the Silmarillon you with like the BoLTs as well. The Tales of Tuor, Gondolin, and Earendil are much greater in detail than those given in the Silmarillon. I highly reccommend the read.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-25-2002, 06:50 PM | #82 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Is Unfinished Tales part of HoME? I have that one, too, and there's lots of little goodies about ME that really fill in some LoTR areas, like "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields", where it tells in much greater detail what happened to Isildur.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-25-2002 at 06:54 PM. |
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11-25-2002, 08:24 PM | #83 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I mispelled seems?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-25-2002, 08:32 PM | #84 |
Elf Lord
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Er, Cirdan, maybe you misunderstand whoever asked about Unfinished Tales. The answer is: no, Unfinished Tales is not part of the History of Middle-earth. It's a seperate, independent book, published before the History of Middle-earth.
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11-25-2002, 08:47 PM | #85 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-25-2002, 09:16 PM | #86 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, Cirdan, I guess we're doomed to disagree here, because to me the "not in it" or "of it" refers back to the "Gods", the beings that Rumil is differentiating from Ilúvatar. The Valar (IOW, the Ainur that chose to enter Arda) are "in it" and "of it", as opposed to Ilúvatar, who is not "in it" or "of it" because He created it. It has nothing to do with his omnipresence, IMO.
And Tolkien clearly states that the gods of ME are angelic beings. A better translation would be "powers" or "governors". He more than once lamented how he used English words for some of his creations, such as wizards and elves. He just thought that too many "foreign" words would be too confusing. From letter 131, Quote:
Re seams - you must have been pulling a loose thread from your clothing, so you wrote "seams"
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-25-2002, 09:30 PM | #87 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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We need to remember too that the BoLTs is the old mythology, therefore it is not part of LotRs, the Silmarillion, or Unfinished Tales.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
11-26-2002, 02:17 AM | #88 |
Elf Lord
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I've never read Unfinished Tales, but seeing as it's written by J.R.R. Tolkien, it must be good. Could anyone tell me why it's called Unfinished Tales though? Is it because it doesn't end, but just leaves off because Tolkien stopped writing it, or is there another reason?
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11-26-2002, 02:31 AM | #89 | |
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It consists of stories in various stages of completion. As is my usual habit, I'll give a quote, this time from the introduction by Christopher Tolkien:
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Some of the main stories - Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin; Narn I Hin Hurin (both of these are somewhat in the Sil), The History of Galadriel and Celeborn (and this one is really unfinished! He changes his mind numerous times). Also some shorter but very interesting stories: The Disaster of the Gladden Fields (talking about Isildur and how the ring was lost); The Quest of Erebor (really fun! the "real" story of how Gandalf convinced Thorin to take Bilbo along); and The Hunt for the Ring (more info on black riders, including how they are "afraid" of water). I would recommend UT over the BoLT books, because as SGH said, BoLT is largely the "old" mythology, although much of it is obviously pertinent (although the Tuor section in BoLT II is really wonderful). Also, I really like MR (Morgoth's Ring), book 10 of HoME series. Solution - buy everything! (I wish I could!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-26-2002, 02:33 AM | #90 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I would recommend The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien over UT and HoME! I have thoroughly enjoyed Letters. But that's just my opinion.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-26-2002, 10:27 AM | #91 | |||
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There are many wonderful things in Bolt: in some cases a more detailed description of places, we have the concept of Ælfwine, Olórë Marë (The Cottage of Lost Play), we have the Lady of Tol Eressëa Meril-i-Turinqi, we have the Man in the Moon (who turns out to be an Elf Uolë Kúvion). The great thing about Bolt is that you get to see first hand the first evolution of the Legendarium, and the poems at the end of Bolt 1 are very beautiful.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-04-2003, 09:16 AM | #92 |
Hobbit
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Sympathy for the Devil?
"Philosophical reflections again?" Ivan snarled malignantly.
"God preserve me from it, but one can't help complaining sometimes. I am a slandered man... I have naturally a kind and merry heart... Before time was, by some decree which I could never make out, I was presdestined 'to deny' and yet I am genuinely good-hearted and not at all inclined to negation. 'No you must go and deny, without denial there is no criticism and what would a journal be without a collumn of criticism?' Without criticism it would be nothing but one 'hosannah.' But nothing but hossanna is not enough for life, the hosannah must be tried in the crucible of doubt and so on, in the same style. But I don't meddle in that, I didn't create it, I am not answerable for it. Well, they've chosen their scapegoat, they've made me write the collumn of criticism and so life was made possible... I...simply ask for annihilation. No, live, I am told, for there'd be nothing without you. If everything in the universe were sensible, nothing would happen. There would be no events without you, and there must be events. So against the grain I serve to produce events and do whats irrational because I am commanded to... [Men] suffer, of course...but then they live...for suffering is life. Without suffering, what would be the pleasure of it? It would be transformed into an endless church service; it would be holy, but tedious. I suffer, but I still don't live. I am an X in an indeterminant equation. I am a sort of phantom in life who has lost all beginning and end, and who has even forgotten his own name. -- The Devil. Ivan's Nightmare, The Brothers Karamozov, Fyodor Dostoyevsky "...the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many..."
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05-17-2017, 10:56 AM | #93 |
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I've just started my Silmarillion re-read. Read (for the first time - it's in an edition I bought since my last reading) JRRT's letter to his publisher, outlining what's in the Silmarillion, how it affects the rest, and explaining why he wanted to publish it along with LOTR.
Finished reading Ainulindale... and starting in Valaquenta. I see that even the last post in this thread pre-dates my joining Entmoot. But now... I can join in the discussion.
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08-18-2018, 07:20 AM | #94 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Upon my last rereading of Ainulindalë, I was struck at the evolution of how I saw Melkor in it.
I no longer see Melkor as evil, rather more like chaos, which is in itself not necessarily good or bad. Which makes the whole idea of Melkor versus the other Ainur and (his meddling in the themes) one of chaos versus order, and not one of good versus evil. The good versus evil allegory clearly comes from a Christian viewpoint (to which I am subject too) and while Tolkien was clearly influenced by his faith, I think this is where he deliberatedly wanted his mythology to be different. I find this epiphany opens up a new line of thought. It would explain better, IMO, why Ilúvatar made Melkor the one odd Ainu out, so to speak. There is no reason you'd really need evil in a world you're creating. But the moment you deal with independant life it needs adversity to strive and thrive against. Order is useful and life needs order to arise. But when you want it to do more than just be, when it needs to change and grow, it needs chaos. Melkor provided that in spades. I'm not saying he isn't evil, but that seems to come later, when he looses his powers to create. For something as chaotic as Melkor it is ironic he himself dealt so badly with things not going his way. And it's not like Ilúvatar didn't warn him. What the three themes are meant to represent, though, still somewhat eludes me as do Ilúvatar's reactions to it. Maybe in another fifteen years, I get another new insight. |
08-19-2018, 03:28 AM | #95 | |||||
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Ainulindalë is for me the most difficult of all Tolkien’s stories. He is attempting to describe the creation of the universe and the fall of the angelic powers. Quote:
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Melkor is, I think, Tolkien’s version of Satan. In Roman Catholic tradition, when shown God’s plan to walk among human beings, Lucifer cries out, “I will not serve!” In Judaism, from which Christianity springs, in the Tanakh (“Old Testament” for Christians), Isaiah 14:12-14, Quote:
My understanding is that Thomas Aquinas says the angels are beings of pure intellect, and make war through ideas. In Ainulindalë, the Ainur are waging war upon one another through their Music. The Judaic view presented in Isaiah sounds to me strikingly like the story Tolkien presents in Ainulindalë: “above the stars of God [i.e., the other angels] I will set my throne on high; … I will make myself like the Most High.” Is this not what Melkor desires: to be not only greater than all the other Ainur, but to take what is theirs, to set himself before even Ilúvatar? The Problem of Evil is an ancient one, often used in arguments against the existence of God. My first philosophy professor began his classes in introductory philosophy with it, and used it as a cudgel to beat us into atheists. If you are interested, here are four different views: Wikipedia (a decent overview; agnostic at best (for both theists and atheists), leans atheist); The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (atheist); Peter Kreeft, professor of philosophy at Boston College, a Roman Catholic university (presumably close to Tolkien’s Catholic view); and the C.S. Lewis Institute, presumably close to Lewis’ opinions around the time Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings and perhaps also to Tolkien’s. There is an associated philosophical argument or debate, Free Will. The question of Free Will is not some silly, willy-nilly how-many-angels-can-dance-of-the-head-of-a-pin question, either: it goes straight to the heart of guilt and innocence, of predestination in both the religious sense (does God create some people just in order to damn them? John Calvin thought so) and in the scientific sense (talk to a neurosurgeon about this issue sometime, if you can find one that has the time and will agree to spend it with you: it’s likely he’s a “hard determinist”). Along with these are a host of questions that follow in their train: Do we have souls? Do these souls continue to exist after our physical deaths? What becomes of us? These are deadly serious questions, and how you answer them determines in large part how you will live your life. In Ainulindalë, Tolkien begins wrestling with the Problem of Evil and with Free Will. Did Ilúvatar not know that Melkor would rebel and become evil or not? Did Ilúvatar make Melkor for that purpose? or did Melkor (mis)use his free will to rebel against his Maker? For anyone wrestling with these problems, I commend to you Pascal’s Wager. Pascal was a brilliant mathematician, and his proposition is mathematically sound. What you do with it, if you look at it, is up to you, whether by Free Will or Hard Determinism. |
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08-20-2018, 08:52 AM | #96 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Well, since the last theme is apparently the Children of Ilúvatar, the Elves should be included in the last, which leaves the second one more ambiguous.
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08-21-2018, 12:49 PM | #97 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Like Alcuin, I also see a re-telling/re-shaping of a Judeo-Christian Creation story in the Ainulindale. My understanding is that JRRT wanted to maintain the all-powerful Judeo-Christian God, but also include figures akin to pantheons of gods found in the Mythology of the Greeks/Norse/so many others. The Ainulindale - and the relationships established therein - was his solution.
In this vein, I DO see Melkor as a clear Satan-figure. Yes - he was blessed with great gifts. How he used them... was up to him. I think it was JRRT's intent to show things this way. To make Melkor into a Satan-figure. I remember a quote by Christopher Tolkien about JRRT's later years - and some philosophical shifts he made. Almost as though he wanted to reconcile his earlier views and histories of Middle Earth with what he believed about Christianity/Christian theology.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |