01-15-2007, 04:32 PM | #81 |
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Ah .
Our country is too overall pro-Israel to act in an even-handed way. On the Democrat side, there is a very powerful Jewish lobby, and on the Republican side, there is a strong conservative Christian pro-Israel position. It comes from both sides of the Congress and from the Administration, and the general public in our country as well. To me, as I'm an evangelical Christian too and love much of what our conservatives stand for, it's tragic that we're taking a one-sided, black and white view on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis and the War on Terror in general. That perspective is blinding us and making matters worse in the Middle East as a whole. It's painful to me on a personal level. I think that the policy of refusing to negotiate with terrorists is probably dated. The kind of terrorism that we're now fighting is different from the smaller scale terror groups and tactics that we opposed when we said that we wouldn't negotiate with them. When they were just small groups hoping to push us around on various issues, we could afford to squash those hopes by saying that we wouldn't deal with them. That would protect our civilians more generally, by making it less likely that terrorists would take them hostage. Now, however, Islamic extremism is widespread and growing very rapidly. It is a deadly menace and a widespread one. Because extremists do not have the technology to fight for a cause in hand-to-hand battles as much nowadays, they resort to terror methods, shadow warfare. So you can have big movements that have clear-cut goals but are not extremely unified and are split up over many places, geographically. They are many movements and groups, sometimes unified by a specific nation or group, but often split up, but all driven by very similar ideologies. Those ideologies are the various forms of modern Islamic extremism. So we are fighting a war against Islamic extremism, in my view, and some affiliated leftist groups. They have common goals and ideologies. They are a new kind of army, a new kind of invader and major threat. They aren't small-time. Assuming that they're small-time and underestimating the threat they pose is one of the major mistakes the left is making on this issue. Eventually, I'm convinced that there is a very grave risk Islamic extremists will get their hands on WMDs and will use them. The left's refusal to acknowledge and adequately respond to severe threats like Iraq, Iran and North Korea is their major mistake that, if the Democrats win the presidency, will probably have horrendous long-term consequences for the West. Islamic extremists also may continue to take over governments and countries, as they did in Somalia, as the appeal of their ideology expands. Their movement is expanding rapidly, but the left doesn't recognize the threat and refuses to take necessary and appropriate responses to it. But our country's current refusal to respond to terrorists as people rather than as orcs is undermining our ability to deal with the threat they pose. Defining them as terrorists now is not going to stop them, or encourage them to stop taking hostages. They'll keep killing and capturing our people just because of their ideology, because to them, they're fighting a war against us. So the old ideas of refusing to communicate with them to keep them from having incentive to take hostages is not going to work at all. It's a poor reason, in the modern context. So we should no longer classify people as terrorists. It's an old-fashioned label that had uses in the past, but now our response to terrorists needs to be changed, because Islamic terrorism is different and refusing to negotiate with them isn't going to stem long-term violence at all. In fact, it may just worsen it, because refusing to negotiate with them might keep us from taking valuable opportunities to establish cease-fires or peace treaties, stem violence and take away the motives that expand Islamic extremism's appeal.
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01-17-2007, 04:44 PM | #82 | |
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Lief, I would say you are right: we're too Pro-Israel to act even-handed over there, but there are other countries besides us that work on this issue which could be moderators. But I think it's inaccurate to say that we (and I know you're being general, which is fine) view so black and white as to make us blind.
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Islamic Terrorism IS different, because the people, culture, and tactics are different. But it is NOT different so far as to say that it isn't terrorism, and it really doesn't deserve to be classified as anything else. Maybe the murderers who were extra-nice should be called "Social Psychos"? As for negotiating with terrorists, I'm not really sure that could be done, at least not with someone like Bin Laden. The only "negotiables" IMO, are the insurgents in Iraq, who might just be doing it for money (ironically). You have to remember Lief, we could have negotiated with a lot of people in the past, and it has been tried. I'm not saying negotiations are hopeless or worthless on the whole, but I very much doubt we can do anything at this point. The thing about negotiations is this: the people we negotiate with of course aren't going to act like they don't like us, I'm sure they'll strike some chord of bonhomie, like Yasser Arafat did with us in the 90s, but underneath they'll be the same jerks, and to add to the mix, we'll be backstabbed. Terrorists don't ask if they can blow your building up.
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01-17-2007, 05:41 PM | #83 | ||
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I agree with you that Islamic terrorism is terrorism. But I don't think that the category is useful, though when applied to them. It doesn't help anything or serve any function except perhaps to boost our own self-estetem a bit. The negative affects of keeping it are much bigger. You aren't allowed to negotiate with a terrorist. But the reason for not negotiating with terrorists doesn't apply to Islamic terrorists, for they'll keep killing or kidnapping your people even if you don't negotiate with them. So a non-negotiation policy is old-fashioned and useless. The term basically blacklists anyone who it refers to as evil. But Islamic extremists are not all evil. Let me give you an example from Hezbollah's conduct. During the war between Israel and Lebanon, a million of the cluster bombs Israel dropped on Lebanon didn't explode. They just lay all over the countryside and in cities and farms, unexploded. They did not hit their Hezbollah targets at all, and were just a vengeful, vindictive attempt on Israel's part to damage the country as much as possible. After Israel withdrew from Lebanon, the bombs did kill Hezbollah fighters. So you could argue that they were a sound military strategy. How did they kill those Hezbollah fighters? The Hezbollah fighters came out and put themselves in harm's way on behalf of the citizens of the country. They risked their lives to do what they could to deactivate the cluster bombs. Several of them died because of their own choice, they yielded their lives for the protection of innocent civilians. What is it Jesus said? There is no greater love than giving up one's life for one's friends. What those fighters did in giving up their lives to deactivate those cluster bombs in civilian city blocks was brave, and it was also noble. It was noble, and those who died in that way deserve to be remembered with honor. I'm not saying that Islamic terrorism isn't evil. I think it is. There are real reasons why they do what they do, however, and some of it is our country's responsibility and the responsibility of the West in general. The Republican Party does tend to paint us as the good guys and them as the bad guys. Anyone who falls under the term terrorist is automatically evil and there is nothing between them and us but kill or be killed. But nowadays, classifying our enemies as terrorists won't achieve anything. The Islamic extremist movement is very broad, with many wings in many countries. It is a hydra with many heads, and when one is chopped off, two grow up in its place. We have seen that when we have attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, and have seen Islamic extremism multiply as a consequence. Not that those attacks were wrong or unjustified, but I don't think there are any good options for the West right now, except perhaps changing our policies in the Israeli/Palestinian Crisis. My main point is that Islamic extremism is a very widespread and spreading belief system, an ideology that must be countered. It is too big to fall under the ordinary category of terrorism, for that category won't serve us in defeating them. When a state massacres civilians, that is not called terrorism. It is the same kind of crime, but it doesn't go by the same name. Terrorism tends to be when a small group or a few small groups kidnap or murder civilians in order to achieve political aims. However, we're not fighting a small group or small groups, so the term "terrorism" doesn't seem to apply. Neither are we fighting a state. We're fighting an ideology that is diversified amongst a large number of groups that span almost the entire world, existing and striving to achieve the goals of their ideology everywhere. So I think that because this is a different kind of enemy than we have previously fought, which takes the techniques of terror while not in its own organization or ideology behaving in ways that make the "terrorist" label useful or practical, some other name and some other way of coping with them needs to be developed. Quote:
While the Camp David peace accords were going on, from what I've heard, terrorist attacks against Israel went down to practically zero for a substantial period of time. We have had militant groups in Iraq make offers of peace and requests for negotiations. I agree with you that Al'Qaeda isn't all that likely to make a peace treaty, but who knows? They have occasionally made overtures that we've ignored. Their overtures of peace have always been pretty absurd, of course, things like: "Pull out of Afghanistan and we'll make a treaty with you." But they might change their tune if we do them enough damage. It's tough to predict what will or won't happen, and I'd leave it to the experts to decide whether a group we're considering making peace with can be trusted to keep its word, and the experts would take the reliability or unreliability into account when thinking about making an agreement. I just don't think we should shut down these options for all Islamic terrorists. There are too many of them, and their way of thinking and fighting is too different.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-17-2007 at 05:49 PM. |
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01-17-2007, 09:33 PM | #84 | ||
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That was an AWESOME post!
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01-18-2007, 12:06 PM | #85 | |
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The CIA trained "Al-Qaeda", and Saddam ok, the us government did; gave them all the weapons, including the gas used against "his own people." So how is this their idealogy, when all the wars and so called terrorist actions are a direct result of the US and british envolvement. Not one thing you have said makes any sense. The only people in this world that has war and terrorism as an idealogy is Bush and his backers ok, and that's what they are continually trying to export all over the world, weither it be Somalia, Iraq or Afghanistan. None of those countries or the islamic religeon cultivated terrorism ok, none but obviously as with any group of people, peopel are going to fight back and that is what is happening today in Iraq.
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01-18-2007, 12:26 PM | #86 | |||||||||||||
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And the Republican Party of course paints it a certain way. If you wanted to defeat Hulk in a fight, are you going to win by identifying him by mushy psychological terms? It's a sad thing that so many otherwise good Muslims have to turn to terrorism, but that does not excuse them, IMO...and when we're finished defeating them (not by destroying the ideal, which can't happen), we can all dwell on how sad the human condition is. Quote:
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Besides, I think it's pretty obvious to everyone, even if they do still say 'terrorist', that the problem is widespread. Quote:
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But here's the quagmire we face with negotiations with terrorist groups, or whatever you want to tag them: if we go, it's because we don't expect them to do anymore harm. So if we pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan, will Al-Qaeda suddenly bloom into a hippy caravan? I doubt it. And I also doubt that they will stop their reacreative activities. So we DON'T WANT Al-Qaeda to exist. So if we did accept the overtures from Al-Qaeda, we might just kill them and backstab. We're actually being pretty honest by refusing them.
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01-18-2007, 12:30 PM | #87 | |||||||
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I'm glad you liked the post, Nurvi .
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Pakistan, having an extremist ideology itself to a large extent, gave our money to groups that had the same orientation. And that included Al'Qaeda. There was no direct funding or training from the CIA to Al'Qaeda. There was accidental and indirect funding that went through Pakistan, and there wasn't any training. Quote:
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01-18-2007, 12:40 PM | #88 | ||
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It's a horrid part of our history in the middle-east, but I would hesitate to say that Saddam killed 3 million of his own people because we made him do it. Are we responsible, yes. We can't shrug all the blame off. But it does not mean that are an evil or wicked nation. Quote:
Tel, with it's ups and downs, it's right to say that overall, Islam is not a bad religion. Sufis are very peaceful. But not all brands of Islam are peaceful, and Muslims have had a history of barbarism and cruelty. Everyone else does too, in some shape or form. Nobody is trying to eliminate Islam the Peaceful religion, but you cannot get past the violent parts of it, same as we can't forget the Inquisition's cruelty.
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01-18-2007, 01:19 PM | #89 | ||||||||||||||
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So I hope you can see why I have some trouble believing those Israeli accounts. They don't match either Israel's record in that war or Hezbollah's. Even if they are true, though, I hope that I have made my point that certainly not all of those we classify as "terrorists," and hence as evil, are actually evil. Another problem with the term is that now, governments can declare whatever dissidents they're fighting to be "terrorists," and so virtually any insurgent group comes under that name. It's a way in modern times of just painting oneself as the good guy and the enemy as evil, which all governments are eager to do, as it makes it more likely they'll get aid in their endeavors from the US or other countries, and it also may potentially justify brutal tactics against the opposition. I think that Israel has made ample use of this. Quote:
I'm not saying we're doing wrong in fighting to defend our country. I have not said we should pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan either. Neither am I saying that combat is altogether not a solution. I think that it may well be a better alternative to letting WMDs be produced in Iraq or Iran. But hit them militarily, and you'll multiply your foes too. So it hurts you badly in a different way, even as you do it. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't do it! It just means you're stuck with a very bad hand in a card game, and you've got to just play it the best you can. Quote:
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I think our country should fight as long as necessary in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless, perhaps, the whole country becomes utterly riven with civil war and all chance of a peaceful solution is completely gone. I think we owe it to the Iraqi people to do our utmost to bring them peace. I think attacking Iran may become the only option we have regarding them. I have not dropped the "fight" option. But I think that the term "terrorist" incorrectly identifies our foes and has many other negative aspects. One of which is altogether dropping the "peace" option. We shouldn't limit ourselves unnecessarily. Quote:
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Hezbollah held to the ceasefire with Israel, even though Israel violated it by launching a commando raid into Lebanon. Hamas and the other Palestinian groups did hold to Abbas' ceasefire for a long time, and I think it's confused how it ended. Each side blamed the other, of course. But I don't think we should close all diplomatic options with all enemy groups we label as terrorists. That is highly unsound.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2007 at 01:25 PM. |
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01-18-2007, 01:35 PM | #90 | |||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-18-2007, 02:15 PM | #91 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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I have not heard any evidence against that story. Quote:
Yeah maybe their rockets didn't kill half as many as Israel did, but you already see my point. Quote:
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Do our enemies really care whether it's the label we're using on them? I doubt it. Is it making us look at things in the wrong perspective? I think MOST people know the problems Lief, the intricate problems of this war. The only people who really care about the term's use is the media, and it's not like THEY ever use it. Quote:
I haven't dropped the peace option, the peace option just drops when it's not available. Quote:
Just saying it's in Baghdad doesn't get us out of the rut by any means, but it does at least clear up the perception that all of Iraq is rampant with violence and in flames. We can still hack this out. Quote:
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I'm not against negotiation. I'm against pretending that negotiations go well when they don't, and leaving the problem only temporarily frozen. It's pretty warm over there in the Middle-East, stuff doesn't stay frozen for long. Quote:
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And I'm glad for the few lives that were saved by those, but did it? Or did it just momentarily the freeze the bullets going into the person's head? Quote:
BTW, I still read and respect your stuff, despite our present squabble
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01-18-2007, 02:25 PM | #92 |
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01-18-2007, 03:01 PM | #93 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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I agree that our enemies probably don't care that we label them terrorists. Bin Laden said he was proud to be called a terrorist by the US. But I'm not saying we should stop using the term because our enemies might be annoyed . I'm saying we should stop using it because it unnecessarily limits US options, improperly describes the new enemy we face (which makes it just an inaccurate term that also creates an inaccurate stereotype), and enables various governments to get away with a lot of unfairness and cruelty because their enemies are evil terrorists. Quote:
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I think you should really agree with me on this- you already seem to agree with me on this. When you say you aren't against negotiation, you admit that you feel the term "terrorist" is faulty in this, because it prohibits all and any negotiation with terrorist groups. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2007 at 03:03 PM. |
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01-18-2007, 03:41 PM | #94 | |||||||||||||||||
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As for it being an excuse for other bad govt's to use...yes, maybe, but I think we have a pretty good idea who those countries are, and they're already in the mix. Quote:
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Not necessarily true, we could negotiate with them while they are still "terrorists". It's not hard at all. Their label by itself shouldn't at all be an invisible wall. Quote:
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01-18-2007, 04:49 PM | #95 | ||||||||||||||
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Hezbollah continued to not attack civilians until Israel began bombing Lebanese civilians in the war between Israel and Lebanon, in 2006. Then, in response to civilian deaths on their side, they changed policy and began to bomb Haifa. Hezbollah tends to be squeamish about the morality of suicide bombings and doesn't like using them itself, though it does have warm relations with Hamas. I tend to think that Hezbollah is a much less sick group than Al'Qaeda. I tend to not think they're really sick, or extremely evil. I think that they do some evil things sometimes, such as the torture of a couple US officials a long time ago, but the US has done the same on occasion. No one's hands are completely clean. Hezbollah's conduct in the 2006 war is very understandable, and the methods their organization has generally used haven't usually been all that horrible. And nations or different powers have very frequently killed one another's civilians in war, especially when they have been equipped with insufficient technology, as Hezbollah is. Remember the Allied bombings of Japan and Germany during WW2, and the Sherman March that ended the Civil War. The kinds of things Hezbollah has done seem to me to be on a different ethical level from Al'Qaeda, which uses civilian human shields all the time, has no compunction about using civilians as targets or getting Muslims to kill Muslims, and just will do anything to achieve its ends. Al'Qaeda plays a lot dirtier than Hezbollah does. Quote:
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But I think you and I just disagree on the connotations of the word "terrorist." I think it means that the person described is inhuman and evil. But we can at least agree on the political policy that goes with the word. There is no negotiation with terrorists. So for that reason alone, if not the other as well, you should agree with me that just rejecting out of hand any possibility of negotiation with Islamic extremists is a blind approach that needlessly dismisses options. Quote:
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Sri Lanka called the Tamil Tigers it's fighting "terrorists" and then engaged in brutal chemical warfare that essentially tortured people to death. Russia continually becomes responsible for atrocities against the "terrorists" in Chechnya. I don't think that the US intends violations of human rights when it uses that word, but that word has incidentally become free license for many countries to do whatever you want. Quote:
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I really, really, really like Mahmoud Abbas, though. I am positive that he is sincere and admire and respect him greatly for the difficult choices he has made and the strength he has shown in a nightmare position, in the cause of bringing peace. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-18-2007, 04:53 PM | #96 |
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anyone for a good old fashioned 'short post'?
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01-18-2007, 06:57 PM | #97 | |
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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01-19-2007, 05:38 AM | #98 | |
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Here's an interesting article from CNN. This is not a response to any post here and no one needs to read it, but if you're interested, here goes. New evidence has been uncovered, further implicating Iran in the violence in Iraq. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-19-2007, 05:51 AM | #99 |
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Interesting discussion Lief. Gaun yersel big man.
I don't find it surprising that Shia militias (militiae?) are getting arms from Iran. Let's see, if China invaded Canada, and installed a Maoist government, don't you think the Free Canuck resistance might get the odd peashooter from the US? In that context it's a pretty unimpressive haul, in fact. Maybe they can file the receipts next to the ones they've got from Saddam in the 80s. However, given your views on "terrorists" and enemies, doesn't that mean we should be talking to Iran as a matter of priority? |
01-19-2007, 06:09 AM | #100 |
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Lief is a tall chap i beleive.
Wotcha El Tel, how's things? Mornin' Eddy - your taters' good? ........................................... |
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