10-26-2004, 04:16 PM | #81 | |
Elf Lord
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10-26-2004, 04:20 PM | #82 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:
I'm glad we're having this talk. I'm also glad that we're able to remain civil while we do so. You might notice that many of us who are opposed to abortion also claim to be Christians. I will presume to speak for the others as well when I say the following: There have obviously been a great number of abortions in our society. A fairly reasonable percentage of women in our society have had abortions. While we feel this is wrong, it is never our intent to simply impose guilt on those who have done so. If we happen to cause someone to admit they made a mistake, or to change their mind about it - well, great! We Christians see some value in a small measure of guilt - only as it leads us to God to seek for forgiveness, for we ourselves are all guilty of one thing or another. So... if this is something any of you have faced, and if any of you have had an abortion - please, do not take our comments as a personal attack on you. We care about you... we truly believe that God loves you... and if you SHOULD feel like you did something wrong, we believe that God will gladly forgive you. gtg
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10-26-2004, 04:21 PM | #83 |
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In what way? That they are not fully formed because there are some fetuses that were forced to be born early, does that make them not human beings?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-26-2004, 04:35 PM | #84 | |
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10-26-2004, 04:37 PM | #85 | ||
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And we shouldn’t be approaching this from the unrealistic “NO ABORTIONS EVER!” end of it. But instead we should be looking at practical ways to decrease the likelihood of CHOOSING an abortion in an imperfect human society. Most people here are disgusted with the idea of abortion for “convenience” and that seems to drive their passion against the whole practice. Im gonna go out on a limb and say no one here is in favor of the idea of abortion for “convenience”. That seems to be one end of the extreme. (Although I guess we could get into an argument over what “convenience” is exactly). So maybe instead of ranting about the evils of abortion and how it’s a black and white issue and we need to take away womens rights and such maybe we should be thinking ok how can we decrease the chances of women choosing to take abortion as a method of birth control. And that’s really a separate kind of discussion. But we would do well here to approach things from that angle and not from the all or nothing angle cause you will be simply guaranteeing more abortions not less. Because youll never reach the very women who would do such a thing to begin with. Cultural change needs to be done from the perspective of best use and not from strong arming tactics.
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10-26-2004, 04:37 PM | #86 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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When I said 'In what way?' I meant in what way to you believe they are different from a normal child (bar the fact that they are still in their mother's womb).
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-26-2004, 05:27 PM | #87 |
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Hello y'all --
Someone mentioned abortion increasing the risk of breast cancer. This is an article that discusses the documentation and reliabilty of studies about abortion's link to breast cancer. *Note: you should read the entire article to understand it all. In the case of the mother's health and rape, you should know that this is only 7% and 1% of all abortion cases, respectively. Here are all the %s, done by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which is very much pro-abortion. Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 76 Woman can't afford baby now 68 Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 51 Woman is unready for responsibility 31 Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 31 Woman is not mature enough or is too young to have a child 30 Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 26 Husband or partner wants woman to have abortion 23 Fetus has possible health problem 13 Woman has health problem 7 Woman's parents want her to have abortion 7 Woman was victim of rape or incest 1 Other 6 [source] I believe that "that group of cells" is a human being from the moment of contraception. Nothing that is not a human being has the potential to become a human being, and nothing that has the potential to become a human being is not a human being. Mods check this: If you deem it "inappropriate" feel free to remove my link. For those of you who don't believe a fetus is a person until part way through the pregnancy, here is a website with pictures of aborted fetuses, from about 8 weeks on. Warning: these are graphic. I would go as far as to call abortion genocide. This article goes into detail on what happens to a fetus during partial birth abortion. Also, if abortion was outlawed, back-alley abortions would continue. They are ocurring right now. However, the rate of total abortions would drastically diminish. Not all women would suddenly run off to their doctor for illegal abortions. Studies show that fetuses feel excruciating pain when they are killed (aborted). This is a wonderful article written by a man who married a woman who had been raped a few years before (and went through with her pregnancy, keeping the child). EDIT: How is a fetus's dependency make it not a person (or condone abortion, I'm don't remember the specifics said earlier on this)? Elderly people become dependent on others. So are babies even after birth.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 10-26-2004 at 05:29 PM. |
10-26-2004, 05:47 PM | #88 |
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Thanks for submitting those links and articles, Mertucio. I argue, but frequently don't do enough hands-on research myself.
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10-26-2004, 05:59 PM | #89 | |
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10-26-2004, 06:01 PM | #90 | |
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10-26-2004, 06:26 PM | #91 | |||||||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-26-2004, 06:38 PM | #92 | ||
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in my mind, the lack in our society of any truely viable system for caring for unwanted children is a pretty big reason... as i stated earlier in this thread (or one of them ) i would be willing to oppose abortion if all forms of contraception were made freely available at any age, children were publically educated from puberty about sex and housing, healthcare and a decent job for expectant mothers was free and easy to obtain i'd also like to see care facilities set up for mothers and their children that are much better and more flexible than we have today... a poor uneducated mother these days who chooses not to abort can either rough it out between welfare, bad jobs and poor state childcare... or she can give up her child entirely to adoption, maybe to never see him or her again... there is little in the way of a positive option... yes, it would take a great deal of money on society's part, but i think it would be worth it it's very easy to sit in suburbia and say "people who get abortions are just rich housewives too lazy to use contraception"... but there is a whole other side to the picture... i knew one inner city teen i use to work with in boston who was crushed by the idea of having to abort a child she was carrying (and yes, she knew it was ultimately her fault)... but she looked at her friends and the prospect of what having that child would mean and the options were pretty hopeless i honestly don't know if "any life is better then no life"... i've had it too easy to make that judgement on someone else * as a side note ~ i'm also not to big on the word "accidents" for innocents killed in war... when we enter a conflict people like to say "innocents might be killed", when the true fact of the matter is innocents are always killed... i agree that we sometimes must make that choice... but we should always make it with the consequences untempered by wishful thinking
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10-26-2004, 06:57 PM | #93 |
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Good thoughtful post, brownie ... esp. your part about looking at the wider picture outside of our comfy homes with Internet access ... we don't have to change our opinions on the issue, but we can help people in other ways.
One clarification on my part (since you referred to me) - IMO, it's not even just a question of "we never kill without good reason" - to me, there is still an issue of intent and action going on, and that's absolutely critical. With capital punishment - there was criminal intent and action on the part of the criminal, thus he/she is eligible for a penalty that society has deemed appropriate. With war, there was intent and action for wrong on the part of the entity that we declare war on (or at least it's presented/interpreted that way, and OKed for that reason - war is never started because someone just "felt like it"), and thus the entity is eligible for an action that society has deemed appropriate. And unfortunately, those that are responsible in the entity won't all congregate into one place so we can deal with only them; often, they use innocents as shields. A side effect of evil intent and action is that innocents are hurt. With abortion, there is NO intent or action for wrong on anyone's part, esp. the baby, so there is no REASON that the baby should have its life taken. I can fully understand that some people think that a fetus is not a person; I do NOT agree that those that are against abortion must necessarily be against war or capital punishment to be logically consistent. You may not agree, but do you see what I'm saying?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2004, 07:02 PM | #94 | ||||
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Or someone might say, "oh, he's got the same expertise as me, the same skills as me. If I don't kill him, I won't have a job and will be poverty stricken." Should she have the right to kill me? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-26-2004 at 07:04 PM. |
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10-26-2004, 09:20 PM | #95 | |||||||
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10-26-2004, 09:20 PM | #96 | |
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You really surprise me. As I understand it, the Supreme Court ruling in Roe v Wade in January of 1973 was a broadly sweeping act which struck down state anti-abortion laws nation-wide, based on flimsy interpretation of rights afforded by the US Constitution. There are only two ways it can be changed: either a subsequent court case whose ruling reverses it, or a constitutional amendment. Before this ruling, the will of the people was largely reflected in the laws of the states in this matter. After that, it was taken out of the people's hands. Since that time, judges have made rulings which only EXTEND rights to an abortion - or rather, further restrict laws which oppose abortion (in the original ruling, IIRC, states could not make any laws limiting abortions in the first trimester, could make laws within certain limitations for the second trimester, and could make any kind of limitation for the third trimester... since then, things have gone to where just about no restrictions can be made). Even in the extreme case of partial-birth abortions, many state legislatures have passed laws preventing it - and the federal legislature themselves have passed two (the first vetoed by President Clinton - the second signed by President Bush), but even THOSE invariably get struck down by judges - although they obviously apply to the third trimester. Heck - it doesn't even take a majority of the Supreme Court... find ONE federal judge somewhere who will rule your way... and an idea which was fully supported by the people, carefully crafted and enacted as the law of the land... will be struck down.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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10-26-2004, 09:49 PM | #97 | |
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To avoid social, economic or emotional hardship, would you kill me?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-26-2004 at 09:57 PM. |
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10-26-2004, 11:36 PM | #98 | |
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Federal judges are bound to the precedent of the higher court, so, as in Rowe V Wade, you appeal to the Supreme court for satisfaction. Though I assume I am reading your point wrong, Val. So the only place that the law will be changed is by constitutional ammendment, or if the "Supremes" (god I love that name ) rule differently on a similar case, thereby binding the hands of any lower court Justice. And as to the majority of the people being anti-abortion, one tends to cast ones memory back to the 1840's when the majority of people were pro-slavery....
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Audaces fortuna juvat |
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10-26-2004, 11:49 PM | #99 |
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I never had any idea how conservative the Moot is!
It looks like its only Hasty and me who are pro-choice (anti-life, pro-abortion, anti-God, whatever), grappling with the debate at hand. [EDIT: this is not a political debate - Eärniel] I'll just go back to non-abstaining girlfriend, have premarital sex using contraception, push for the legalisation of medicinal marajuana, push for increase social security so as to allow people to not work and get paid for it, push for Gay marriage so as to destroy the traditional family unit, raise taxes because we like to bleed middle and upper classes so as to start a workers revolution in which we, the proletariat, will rise up and impale all aristocrats in pitchforcks; all while I dodge the draft because I am a hippy communist, ect.
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Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by Earniel : 10-27-2004 at 04:34 AM. |
10-27-2004, 01:33 AM | #100 |
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I'm pro-choice as well. Didja miss the bit where me and rian were quibbling over terminology?
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