Wraiths - Page 5

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-25-2005, 05:26 PM

I wouldn't really say Radagast was dumb. He was a Maia after all.

ItalianLegolas · 01-25-2005, 05:26 PM

true, it probably was mostly the eagles, I never really liked how Radagast got such a small part, compared to Gandalf and Saruman

Elemmírë · 01-25-2005, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

The ents were originally just spirits, but they eventually turned into trees.
I just read something that said that Eru gave the Olvar(Flora) and the Kelvar(fauna) each a gift, he gave the Olvar mobility, and the Kelvar spirits so harm would not come to them because they could not move. I think that Aule and Ent thing is right, I'll check

Both Eagles and Ents are spoken about in one of the Later Silmarillion (HoME 10&11) books, and there's a theory that they were Maiar that took such shapes... I don't think any of it is "known" in truth though, a lot about ME, especially stuff like that, is simply guesswork, methinks.

Pytt could be right. Eagles are rather autonomous.

Embladyne · 01-25-2005, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I wouldn't really say Radagast was dumb. He was a Maia after all.

I have never thought that he was. (Look at how much I advocate for him..) But, since he was sent by Yavanna, he shares her love of the flora and fauna of ME, and so isn't really interested in the knowledge of men. And in that repect, to some he appears to be not very smart. But only in the terms they judge smartness. He had his purpose, and served it, I believe.

Pytt · 01-25-2005, 05:30 PM

I never said he was dumb, I just said he was slightly duumber than the ealges. as you say, he is after all a Maia.

ItalianLegolas · 01-25-2005, 05:38 PM

well, if he was only interested in playing with bunny rabbits, why the hek was he sent to stop Sauron!

Embladyne · 01-25-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Both Eagles and Ents are spoken about in one of the Later Silmarillion (HoME 10&11) books, and there's a theory that they were Maiar that took such shapes... I don't think any of it is "known" in truth though, a lot about ME, especially stuff like that, is simply guesswork, methinks.

Here's what I was talking about:
After Eru pardons Aule for creating the dwarves too early, and Aule shares his "mistake" with Yavanna, she is releived that it has worked out for good, but tells Aule that since he didn't share the knowledge of the creation of them with her, they will not share her love of plants and animals, and she mourns for all her work. So, she goes to Manwe to see if there is some kind of solution:

Quote:

'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear... ....Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'
'This is a strange thought.' said Manwe.
'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou went in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive some, and some dang to Illuvatar amid the wind and the rain.'

Quote:

And Manwe said: 'O Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits fromafar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-25-2005, 05:48 PM

You could ask why the heck Saruman was sent to stop Sauron as he was just 'playing with orcs' or why were the blue wizards sent. Gandalf was the only one who is said to have completed their task.

Embladyne · 01-25-2005, 05:52 PM

As a continuation of the last quote, and in relation to the Eagles:

Quote:

'But dost thou not now remember, Kementari, that thy thought also sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Illuvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'

Elemmírë · 01-25-2005, 06:12 PM

But what were those spirits that were sent?

Anyway... you know... I just had to check to see what thread we were in...

Anyone want to hunt up and old thread about the wizards? There's one on the blue ones I know about...

So... 'bout them wraiths...

Embladyne · 01-25-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

So... 'bout them wraiths...

They went that a-way *crosses arms and points*

Blackheart · 01-26-2005, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

It seems like the sort of thing like partly withholding (for a time at least) the Gift of Man should be beyond a mortal's power, even if he had Elvish and even Maiarin blood...

Well they did... have a touch of maiar...

But perhaps it's as simple as moving your mind to a more British point of view. Kings rule by divine decree. Isildur was the closest thing to a prince of men existing at that time (assuming Elendil hadn't fallen yet)..

He didn't actually withold the "gift" of death either... But he did hold them to their oath... which bound them to Arda. They were not free to leave, even in death...

Blackheart · 01-26-2005, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Galadriel wanted Olorin to have the job. But considering Curumo's ambition, it's no real surprise that he got the job.

You mean Varda.... Galadriel wasn't in Valanor at the time the Istari were chosen....

Blackheart · 01-26-2005, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

well, if he was only interested in playing with bunny rabbits, why the hek was he sent to stop Sauron!

Yavanna begged the other valar to include him....

Telcontar_Dunedain · 01-26-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackheart

You mean Varda.... Galadriel wasn't in Valanor at the time the Istari were chosen....

I think LM means that she wanted Olorin to have 'the job' as chief of the White Council.

Elemmírë · 01-26-2005, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I think LM means that she wanted Olorin to have 'the job' as chief of the White Council.

Yep.

Embladyne · 01-26-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Yavanna begged the other valar to include him....

Isn't the order of the Istari listed with Saruman first, Radagast second, Gandalf third, and the two blue guys last?
I think this is from the UT....(the order)
I always wonder why they list Radagast second, if Yavanna begged for him to be included. It would seem like he would be listed last

But anyway, wasn't he originally kinda a companion to Saruman? Not in the same way that the blue wizards were friends...but, still....Gandalf/Olorin always seems to be kinda a loner, already set apart from the others before their mission begins.

Radagast The Brown · 01-26-2005, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embladyne

Isn't the order of the Istari listed with Saruman first, Radagast second, Gandalf third, and the two blue guys last?
I think this is from the UT....(the order)
I always wonder why they list Radagast second, if Yavanna begged for him to be included. It would seem like he would be listed last

But anyway, wasn't he originally kinda a companion to Saruman? Not in the same way that the blue wizards were friends...but, still....Gandalf/Olorin always seems to be kinda a loner, already set apart from the others before their mission begins.

The two first are Alatar and Saruman, not Radagast. Gandalf was third. Radagast and Palando were last.
Alatar and Saruman were first because they were the only ones to volunteer. Gandalf was chosen by Manwe, after them. (Varda says,by the way, that Gandalf doesn't go as third.. implying he'd be the leader I think)
Yavanna did not have to beg, she just asked it from Aule (Saruman is of Aule's Maiar).

In another place it's: 1. Saruman, 2. Gandalf, and 3. Radagast, now placed according to their stature in Valinor.

Embladyne · 01-26-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

The two first are Alatar and Saruman, not Radagast. Gandalf was third. Radagast and Palando were last.
Alatar and Saruman were first because they were the only ones to volunteer. Gandalf was chosen by Manwe, after them. (Varda says,by the way, that Gandalf doesn't go as third.. implying he'd be the leader I think)
Yavanna did not have to beg, she just asked it from Aule (Saruman is of Aule's Maiar).

In another place it's: 1. Saruman, 2. Gandalf, and 3. Radagast, now placed according to their stature in Valinor.

Ok, thanks! Shows how well I remember....

ItalianLegolas · 01-26-2005, 03:45 PM

How come Aule's Maiar always seem to go bad? Sauron and Saruman were both of Aule's Maiar.

01-25-2005, 05:26 PM	#81
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I wouldn't really say Radagast was dumb. He was a Maia after all. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-25-2005, 05:26 PM	#82
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	true, it probably was mostly the eagles, I never really liked how Radagast got such a small part, compared to Gandalf and Saruman __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-25-2005, 05:30 PM	#85
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	I never said he was dumb, I just said he was slightly duumber than the ealges. as you say, he is after all a Maia. __________________ Don't Panic!

01-25-2005, 05:38 PM	#86
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	well, if he was only interested in playing with bunny rabbits, why the hek was he sent to stop Sauron! __________________ What was lost is now found.

01-25-2005, 05:48 PM	#88
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	You could ask why the heck Saruman was sent to stop Sauron as he was just 'playing with orcs' or why were the blue wizards sent. Gandalf was the only one who is said to have completed their task. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

01-25-2005, 06:12 PM	#90
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	But what were those spirits that were sent? Anyway... you know... I just had to check to see what thread we were in... Anyone want to hunt up and old thread about the wizards? There's one on the blue ones I know about... So... 'bout them wraiths... __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

01-26-2005, 03:45 PM	#100
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	How come Aule's Maiar always seem to go bad? Sauron and Saruman were both of Aule's Maiar. __________________ What was lost is now found.

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