03-29-2007, 12:54 PM | #81 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-29-2007, 12:58 PM | #82 | |
Elf Lord
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Aka
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03-29-2007, 01:27 PM | #83 |
Quasi Evil
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Well of course god would want to be just like us! We're awsome!
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-29-2007, 03:41 PM | #84 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-29-2007 at 03:43 PM. |
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03-29-2007, 03:48 PM | #85 |
Quasi Evil
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But we're not is the point. We're just conceited.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-29-2007, 03:57 PM | #86 | |
Elf Lord
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Exactly.
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I'm praying for mercy, not justice. |
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03-29-2007, 06:07 PM | #87 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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AND that it would make sense for God to make us like himself. Why mess with a great design? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-29-2007, 06:14 PM | #88 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And another Chesterton quote, semi-related to the thread topic: "I do not believe in a fate that falls on men however they act; but I do believe in a fate that falls on them unless they act. "
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-29-2007, 06:52 PM | #89 |
Elf Lord
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wild is the wind! Apt, as no other statement when talking of God or Gods or any or our own realtionships to them or him/ it. Last edited by Butterbeer : 03-29-2007 at 06:53 PM. |
03-29-2007, 06:56 PM | #90 | |
Elf Lord
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Busted! rotfl
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Thanks for the big laugh, rian. I needed it. |
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03-29-2007, 08:03 PM | #91 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You're quite welcome
I resemble that remark myself ... (Chesterton has a way with words!!)
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-29-2007, 10:29 PM | #92 | ||||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Flight is an aspect common to eagles. If two different eagles both have wings and are perfectly healthy, we wouldn't expect to find one able to fly and the other not. In fact, if we did, we'd suspect that there was some outside force restricting that one bird from flying. Quote:
The nicest person in the world has probably done a mean thing or two in their lives, and some of the most evil may have done something nice on occasion. Thus, if we have the ability to do both, and are predestined, we are restricted from doing one or the other at any given point in time. If a healthy bird somehow ceases to fly, something is retricting it. Quote:
If god is ruled by predestination, as you say we are, then the ultimate "cause" is just existence itself. Things play out according to the combination of blind matter and energy and everything that follows is predestined, including god. Most religious points of view assume that at least god is somehow beyond this logical restriction. And if he has the ability to act outside such restrictions, there is no reason to believe that he could not pass this ability down at least to some extent. A "soul" that is free to act and grow over it's existence, as opposed to a soul that is destined to follow a given path. It may begin with randomization (and from watching my kids, I don't doubt it ), but that randomization becomes shaped over time into something greater. It also goes back to something I mentioned a few posts back. Maybe our real freedom is the freedom to influence others. While our choices may be random, how those choices effect others around us are far from random, and we realize this an learn from it. Thus, while we retain the ability to make a completely random choice, we grow by our ability to sense how these choices effect others and modify our future choices in relation to this. It's order from randomness, by observing cause and effect. Our "identity" is the journey in and of itself. And, come judgement day, god does not judge us by what choices we made (since they weren't really choices), but by how we turned out. How much we've grown. Quote:
But, it seems to me that true faith is the opposite of logic, since you wouldn't have to have faith if it was logical.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 03-29-2007 at 10:31 PM. |
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03-30-2007, 12:36 AM | #93 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Having faith in something that is illogical is silly.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-30-2007, 02:22 AM | #94 | ||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Now that that's noted, I'll go on to respond to this . You're not looking at the decisions on a small enough level. In terms of brain chemistry and genetics, and in terms of experience, humans are quite different from one another. Comparing them on that level, if you expected both to be able to behave in the same ways, you might be considered quite silly. Quote:
The fact that heroic people have sometimes behaved in cowardly ways, and the other way around, does indeed illustrate that humans can change. However, this depends on the large host of factors that determine identity. There's socialization, environment, what the person has been going through in life (history), along with genetics. If it was all genetics and unchanging, I'd say your point is valid. But identity is based upon a lot more than that. Indeed, when you carefully examine why people behave in one way at one time and in a completely different way at another time, if you look at the two different actions closely enough and at the events that led up to them, you'll usually find that there's a reason for the variance in behavior. I only say "usually" because I doubt that we're precise enough to always be able to get into the motivations in the human psyche. I think that if we were that sophisticated, we'd see that it always makes sense. And knowing your own personal views on determinism, I'd say you agree with me . Quote:
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The other parts of what you said above, I do have problems with, though. I'll explain why. Quote:
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And about logical faith being easy, let me just tell you from personal experience that it isn't. God tests faith by calling us to take risks for him. Even if I know in my head that he is capable, relying on him in practical experience can take a good deal of faith. God steadily works with me, increasing my faith one step at a time as he proves himself to me, accomplishing for me all he said he would and proving the accuracy of his words through actions. God does this for all believers who are in functional as opposed to dysfunctional relationships with him.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-30-2007 at 02:25 AM. |
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03-30-2007, 08:19 AM | #95 |
Elf Lord
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Oh, Good LORD, brownjenkins,
please stop.
Lief is making no sense whatever, he's completely babbling, and it's clear he intends to keep doing that until "the opposition rests." If he's willing to go so far as not to see a genetic difference between people and eagles that's more significant than between people and people, what can you do? Where you are there is trying to find out why the eagle isn't required to confess Christ Jesus as his personal saviour, and since the answer to that is clearly nonsensical why put everyone through it? For me, I'm just begining to DREAD seeing this lugged into the top five, because it's so far past entertaining. It makes me want to send medical rescue to the boy's house. Just my opinion. |
03-30-2007, 09:42 AM | #96 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Logic, on the other hand, is the process of proving something. And you can't prove, or disprove, something that is unprovable. Thus, faith has nothing to do with logic. If you could prove god's existance via logic, you wouldn't need to resort to faith.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-30-2007, 09:53 AM | #97 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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We're basically rehashing classical philosophical arguments anyway. And the very fact that these arguments existed thousands of years ago, and still exist today, proves that there are no correct answers, and never will be. If it was logical, there would be little or no debate. All answers are relative to how one chooses to define concepts like "freedom" and "reponsibility". Which isn't too surprising, since the concepts themselves were created by us. Or, maybe just predestined to be created by us.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-30-2007, 12:03 PM | #98 | |||
Elf Lord
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I am sorry to see you decide to stop, especially if it was on the grounds for departure given in Earl's post (as is indicated by your stopping in response to his post): "he's completely babbling." I've been quite enjoying the debate, and I thought that in your last post, I may have seen a little common ground growing between our positions. Quote:
So no one can ever "prove" anything. And faith can rest in something unprovable while still being logical and reasonable. A child has no proof that his mother will provide him with breakfast in the morning. He has very good reason to believe that she will though, and the belief is logical, based on what he knows of her character and her past experience of her behavior. Demanding "proof" is the height of unreasonableness, since absolutely nothing can ever be proved, not by science nor by logic, nor by anything else, and we live our lives based on beliefs that are unproven, however strongly supported by evidence they might be. Faith is fully supported by evidence in the case of God. Faith is still required, though. If you hear God tell you to go and speak in front of a bunch of teenagers for fifteen minutes when you have not prepared a message for them at all, and have no time but total reliance upon God, one feels very nervous however rational faith might be. In this case, I'm speaking from personal experience. There have been several times in my life when God has asked me to do things for him, and there is an element of fear in doing it, however rational faith in God might be. So faith is required and is pretty freaky, even though it makes sense and comes out with good results.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-30-2007 at 12:11 PM. |
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03-30-2007, 12:55 PM | #99 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
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If one buys the big bang theory from a scientific point of view, they believe that the universe probably started with a singularity. If one buys creationist theory, they are typically certain that god created the universe. Certainly, there are plenty of religious people who believe in god, but aren't certain. But if someone says, "I have faith that our universe was created by god." I read that as, "god definitely created our universe." Not, "god probably created our universe."
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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03-30-2007, 04:32 PM | #100 | ||
Elf Lord
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I have only been arguing that predestination makes sense assuming Christian doctrine. I have never been trying to argue for predestination without Christian doctrine. Since my statement that God was a first cause is entirely in accord with Christian doctrine, it was perfectly valid, considering my assumptions. Though actually, one doesn't even have to assume Christian doctrine in order to make sense and be logical. Christian doctrine can stand on its own without assumpting it. As I said before, there is a vast quantity of evidence supporting the truth of Christianity as a religion. That evidence makes acceptance of Christian doctrine logical. So because of the evidence, logic dictates that one accept Christian doctrine as true. Therefore, because Christian doctrine is accepted as true, assuming its framework for debating predestination makes sense. I know that you don't agree with me about the evidence, and that without it, my claims about the nature of God transcend logic. The debate over the evidence is a whole 'nother issue. I've only been trying to argue here, though, that assuming Christianity's accuracy, predestination makes perfect sense and does not diminish either us or God. Quote:
We can't live life assuming that nothing is real, though. When you sat down on your chair to read this message, you did so assuming you wouldn't go through the chair and the floor and into the center of the Earth to melt. We have to assume that things make sense and follow a certain rational order if we are to live our lives, for otherwise we'll probably end up in car accidents, if we ever had believed enough in our cars to enter them in the first place. In my opinion, the evidence for Christianity is so powerful that no one can deny its validity without allowing bias, illogical and terribly faulty reasoning, and personal feelings to cloud their judgment. Observation is a major part of this evidence, both physical observation that everyone can see rather than individuals, as well as personal spiritual experiences that others haven't experienced and so can't judge. Observable evidence includes fulfilled prophecies (which can be seen as the repeatable, predictive experiment mandated by science, as one prophet can make multiple prophecies with them all coming true), miracles, and other gifts of the Spirit. The accuracy of the scripture, as corroborated by many sources, is also important. So are statistics indicating the likelihood that Jesus could have fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah that he fulfilled. I could go into other evidences too. Some of them are scientifically repeatable. Many stand on their own as powerful signs, without that. For me, because of my personal experiences with Christ and the Holy Spirit, and all the outside evidence I have seen supporting Christian doctrine, it would make as much sense for me to doubt the existence of my brothers and family as it would to doubt the existence of a personal, Christian God. That's how strongly God can prove himself to believers through his interaction with them. There is such a thing as proving "beyond reasonable doubt." Assuming we aren't in the Matrix or in the hands of a God who transcends logic and tricks us with what we see, we can be very, very sure that we are right when believing in Christian doctrine. That's my perspective on this . I know that this naturally leads to a debate over the evidence. If you want to go there, we can. But I'll just say before we do, if we do, that the personal experience with Christ would be what really clinches it for you. If you pray to God that he will reveal himself to you, and if you are willing to change your life (or allow him to do so for you, which he can do) if he does so, he will do so. And if you can't ask that he reveal himself now from your heart, with that willingness to change your life in response, you can ask him to put it in your heart to be able to ask from your heart. I believe God would answer such a prayer. And that would also be the first sign of many that would follow, for you.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-30-2007 at 04:40 PM. |
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