02-16-2009, 03:39 AM | #81 | |||||||
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And note: Olmer has proved that Merry was standing by the side entrance (he had to go round the corner to follow the nazgul). So Merry couldn't see Ferny and Isengarder exiting. Quote:
What do you think is wrong in my timeline for 9.45-10.00 that I have posted before, Alcuin? Quote:
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I think it were the Isengarder and Ferny who were lifting Merry when Nob came. I don't see the nazgul doing the dirty job himself when he was in a hurry and there were two mortal ruffians to order about. It is just second nature for a being used to command others. The ruffians got the order to pick Merry, while the nazgul was gone, but got scared by Nob and dropped him. Unlike the nazgul, Ferny couldn't afford to be accused of murder: he hoped to continue living in Bree after this night's work. About the horses. The quote you have posted, Alcuin: Quote:
When nazgul F left for Andrath, H and I must have planned the night attack between themselves, then H returned on foot to Ferny's and gave orders to the assembled ruffians, then at the appointed time HI most likely rode around Bree and made Harry open the West gate for them to bring the horses inside. While the Inn was under attack, the Gate likely stood open. Last edited by Gordis : 02-16-2009 at 03:46 AM. |
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02-16-2009, 10:24 AM | #82 | |
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02-16-2009, 12:15 PM | #83 | ||
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The nazgul became aware of Merry and sent him in a swoon with Black Breath spell. Merry fell. The Isengarder continued his report, the nazgul became excited and went away in a hurry to find his buddies camping outside the South Gate. Before leaving, he gave the ruffians an order re: Merry. Maybe he told them to kill Merry, maybe he told them to bring him inside the house, but likely he said something ambiguous like "clean up the mess and wait for me". At the moment Merry interested him not at all. With the nazgul away, Ferny and Isengarder probably argued what to do with Merry. Ferny's reputation was bad, so for him it was dangerous to kill a hobbit right on his own doorstep. It was dangerous also to keep Merry prisoner in his house, for the first house to be searched likely would be his. The Isengarder may have been of the opposite opinion - he was a stranger in Bree. At this time they likely examined the hobbit and found he was one from the Shire group. Anyway, all this took some time, so when they finally decided to carry Merry somewhere, Nob was already there. The ruffians bolted. |
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02-16-2009, 01:25 PM | #84 |
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So what new knowledge has this very detailed discussion of place and time given us? (I would have contributed more were it not for my tight weekend=/)
You're ping-theory about the ring and the Nazgûl was very interesting to read Alcuin. Good job
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02-16-2009, 06:44 PM | #85 | |
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I learned these things:
In addition, there are three other things that have emerged:
Last edited by Alcuin : 02-16-2009 at 07:58 PM. Reason: spelling: in accurate -> inaccurate; punctuation |
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02-16-2009, 07:01 PM | #86 | ||||||
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It isn’t important until we get to the raid on the Inn. That, I believe, cannot be assigned to “servants of the Ringwraiths,” as some have done. It appears to me clearly contrary both to the published text and to the author’s intentions. But as for whether it was the Nazgûl lifting Merry, or one Nazgûl and Ferny (or the Isengarder), or Ferny and the Isengarder under the direction of the two remaining Nazgûl as “The Hunt for the Ring” MSS might be interpreted (with a stretch), I don’t care. Two Nazgûl were responsible for the decision to take him, and together they were responsible for the decision to leave him. Quote:
Whether the West gate stood open or not during the attack on the Inn, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t doubt it. Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 02-16-2009 at 07:57 PM. Reason: word choice and punctuation |
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02-16-2009, 07:32 PM | #87 |
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Once again,
The Dread Pirate Roberts has discovered that Tolkien appears to be using British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) for his time for sunrise the following morning. Are we using standard time, which the sun at its zenith at noon, or daylight savings time, as Tolkien appears to have, with the sun at its zenith at 1 o’clock?If I leave the rough time-line as is, on standard time, the hobbits arrive in Bree around 7 PM and Strider barricades the parlor around 11 PM. If I use British Summer Time (Daylight Savings Time) to match the times published in The Fellowship of the Ring, everything gets pushed back one hour. What is the consensus of the Entmoot on this? |
02-16-2009, 10:23 PM | #88 |
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I don't know - so I'm very neutral.
But since you're at it, you ought to adjust the date for correct sunset, etc. September 29 & 30 on the Shire Calendar (as recorded) would be more like September 20 & 21 - or September 21 & 22, on our modern calendar.
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02-16-2009, 10:39 PM | #89 | |
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What about British Summer Time / Daylight Savings Time? |
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02-16-2009, 11:43 PM | #90 |
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Appendix D - with a little bit more information in HoME 12.
Mid-year's Day comes at the summer solstice. That would make Yule at the winter solstice, and presumably the vernal equinox at either March 30 (last day of March - which has 30 days in this calendar) or April 1 - and the autumnal equinox on either September 30 or October 1. Our autumnal equinox is normally on September 22 - so we should subtract about 8 or 9 days, I think. Or - you could work it from the Yule or Mid-Year, to make sure of which it is. I think I've done the exercise, but don't exactly remember the results. As for the 'British Summer Time / Daylight Savings Time - I doubt it would be used in Third Age Middle Earth, since those were much more modern inventions. Although it's possible that JRRT would have taken note of the time of sunrise and forgotten to make the one hour adjustment.
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02-17-2009, 05:10 AM | #91 | ||||||
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BST or no BST? - My answer is September 30 with BST
I firmly believe that our only consideration must be the conformity of different possibilities we have with the published LOTR text.
What are our possibilities? London September 21 without BST 05:11 civil twilight (dawn) 05:44 apparent sunrise London September 21 with BST : 06:11 civil twilight (dawn) 06:44 apparent sunrise London September 30 without BST 05:26 civil twilight (dawn) 05:59 apparent sunrise London September 30 with BST 06:26 civil twilight (dawn) 06:59 apparent sunrise Our quotes: Quote:
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It fits both London September 21 with BST (06:11) and London September 30 with BST (06:26), but it doesn't fit times without BST. Second quote implies that sunrise was not too long before 8, most likely at 7. More quotes: Quote:
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I believe Tolkien had simply consulted the Almanac he had, without any calculations. So his time is London September 30 with BST (dawn:6:26, sunrise:6:59). Neither does it seem that he had recalculated the difference between the Shire calendar and normal one. Remember, at the time Tolkien was still writing a children's story, a sequel to the Hobbit, with rather remote connection to his Legendarium - he wouldn't bother to calculate times as thoroughly as he would have done by the end of the tale. And later on no exact times are given at all - only "at dawn", "at sunrise", "by midday" etc. After Bree the Hobbits left civilized places similar to XIX century England and firmly entered Middle-Ages. |
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02-17-2009, 05:45 AM | #92 | |
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correction
No, I was being unfair to Tolkien. When he used the 1941 Almanac, he did take away the extra hour of summer time, he didn't make this silly mistake to unconsciously introduce DST to Middle-Earth. But in 1940-1945 (WWII) Britain had two hours (!) added to GMT. Read
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So, ME seems one hour in advance to GMT London time all year round. I believe it solves the riddle. Last edited by Gordis : 02-17-2009 at 05:53 AM. |
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02-17-2009, 10:08 AM | #93 |
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Gordis, that is an awesome find.
Great work by everyone here. Something else I've learned in this thread is that it IS possible to have an in-depth collaborative Tolkien research project on a board without anyone getting self-righteous and smarmy. Entmoot is the only board I've ever seen this measure of success and cooperation on. This has already become my primary Tolkien board; I'm considering making it my only Tolkien board primarily because of the cooperative attitude of the people here.
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02-17-2009, 11:36 AM | #94 | |
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The discussions about the Tolkien world here are definitely very civil and very construcive at least from my point of view. I don't know of any other Tolkien board (this is the only internet board I have used, use and will ever use! and that says something about Entmoot worthiness It's very diverse) but surely nothing beats this! I think what's pretty clear by the numerous interesting facts that have been established on this thread, is that the depth of Tolkien's Middle Earth enthusiasm and genious simply knows no limits. Just when you think there's a bottom there's yet more to discover!
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02-17-2009, 05:12 PM | #95 | |
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Found while looking for other information in HoME VI:
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02-17-2009, 05:47 PM | #96 | ||
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Let us use caution including the draft versions of the tale for more than indications and intentions. If we use them as hard-and-fast guides to the action in the final telling – particularly in the timing or order of events – then we shall surely re-incorporate errors that Tolkien eliminated as he worked through the story. It isn’t that there isn’t useful information in them (such as the sketch-map of Bree), but I strongly believe a statement of time in a draft version should only be retained if it still fits (or adequately explains) the course of events in the published story. The draft passage does reveal one thing: Tolkien was tracking finer gradations of time than quarter-hours when he wrote the draft! He might have been tracking only quarter-hours at the end, but “about 55 minutes steady going” is an awfully precise “about”. The Dread Pirate Roberts and Gordis, I doff my hat to you both on the British Summer Time and British Double Summer Time. That such an oddity should arise in the writing is, well, rather odd: Tolkien was aware of the difference in hours from noon and attempted to correct it, but by accident, he only corrected half the error! That is surely worthy of an article in one of the scholarly journals! I take it that the consensus is that we should move the times posted in the rough time-line forward by one hour, then? The next obvious question goes beyond Bree. Was there not also an extra hour added to Greenwich Mean Time during the winter months of World War II? (In other words, one extra hour added all year long?) And if there were, did Tolkien accidentally retain that one extra hour during the winter months in all his other times as well? In other words, if he corrected for the two-hour difference in the summer months by moving back only one hour, forgetting the extra hour, did he also forget to remove that extra hour from the winter months as well? And finally – if the rest of Middle-earth was one hour ahead, was Lórien still on standard time? |
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02-17-2009, 06:40 PM | #97 | |||||
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Unfortunately, I would have been surer of my theory if I knew that Tolkien indeed used the Almanack for 1941-42 while writing the Prancing Pony chapter. It seems most of it had been written before it, in 1938-39. However, in the drafts the quotes mentioning exact times seem to be absent. Maybe Tolkien introduced these mentions later, while preparing the chapter for publication. Quote:
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02-17-2009, 08:40 PM | #98 |
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I just lined up Tolkien’s Shire Reckoning with the calendars for 1941 and 2009. It isn’t elegant: just brute force.
“29 September” is “29 Halimath” in Shire Reckoning. That day in the year, that far from Solstice, corresponds to 20 September 1941, or 19 September 2009. Autumnal Equinox would fall two days later, on 2 Winterfilth (autumnal equinox in London was on September 23, 1941 at 11:33 AM and will be Tuesday, September 22, 2009 at 10:19 PM), which would correspond to October 2 in the story. Tolkien takes no note of the first day of autumn in the published text. The times for sunset and twilight for 19 September 2009 will be 18:07 - SunsetI cannot find the twilight times for 20 September 1941. If I use the same lengths of time in minutes as for 2009, however, and the time for sunset in 1941, and allowing for Tolkien’s extra hour, I get 19:04 - SunsetHere is the latest version of the rough time-line based on 20 September 1941 and retaining the extra hour that Tolkien forgot during wartime:The only extra interesting thing about this version of the time-line is that Merry’s near-miss with the Nazgûl, and his bursting into the parlor, now take place right around midnight. Last edited by Alcuin : 02-17-2009 at 08:43 PM. |
02-17-2009, 09:55 PM | #99 |
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Already found an error. Took my solstice for 1941 from another source; the source The Dread Pirate Roberts located says “June Solstice is on Saturday, June 21, 1941 at 9:33 PM in London.”
Realigned calendars, moved everything back one day to match 19 September 1941. Sunset is 7:07 PM local time, including Tolkien’s extra wartime hour. Move all times forward 3 minutes. (Not a good way to estimate dusk, but it’s a “rough” time-line – very rough, it seems.) Civil twilight now ends around 7:40 PM. Moved all the times forward 15 minutes: Merry now has his little encounter with the Nazgûl at Bill Ferny’s house about midnight, and comes bolting home sometime afterwards. Somehow, I find that appropriate. However, since it is supposed to be midnight, I wonder why Tolkien didn’t mention that it was around midnight – he frequently takes note of such things. Another thing to consider is the reflections of CAB and Attalus on people’s sleeping habits: would all this uproar have kept the local townsfolk awake? And might Nob’s yelling have taken place around that time that the townsfolk might have been stirring in the middle of the night anyway, making it all that more imperative that whomever was lifting Merry drop him and slip away? Here is the corrected, latest version of the rough time-line:OK – what I left out or failed to correct? Are there any more errors or omissions? |
02-18-2009, 02:23 AM | #100 |
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Seems fine to me. Great job, Alcuin. I will read it more attentively in the evening, I have to run now. - Gordis
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