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[Blackheart]

Probably...

Though I think it started with the task of trying to determine something about the nature of a creator from studying his creation....

And then comparing it with the known universe, which suffers from a metaphysical problem, the nature of knowledge.

[Wulažg]

How can we compare Arda with the known universe without serious adaptations though? I mean, we have to fast forward in Arda's history a lot before we get to the right physical and metaphysical state for comparing it to the known universe. Wouldn't the point of trying to figure out the creator from the creation be us figuring out Tolkien, the metacreator?? Shouldn't we be coming from the Tolkien angle as well to figure out Eru?

[Blackheart]

Well that's the whole point.

We can tell a bit about Tolkien from his works. Whether or not he ever envisioned himself as Eru, or even working through him while writing, is something I have no information on however.

But it's still sort of circular, how much can you really tell about Tolkien as a man from just the LOTR? When you get into his letters and journals and such, then you get a good deal more information.

But I don't know if he ever considered the actual physics of how time would work in Arda as opposed to what lay outside arda.

Most likely if he did, he would have ignored it in favor of a good storeyline. Which is probably all the information you need about Eru in order to solve the problem.

Go tell the universe that a bumblebee can't fly because it's physically impossible, and the universe will just laugh in your face.

[Dwarven Sen]

Actually he thought of himself as Beren.
I think he actually tried to keep his life and his stories separate, which is why LotR took so long to finish. So I doubt he saw himself as Eru.
Bumblebees shouldnt fly and Neekerbreekers shouldnt bite.

[Blackheart]

*Watches in fascination as a horde of neekeer breekers consume the dwarf and a horde of bumblebees carry off the bones*

I warned you about that....

[Sister Golden Hair]

That is true. Tolkien viewed himself as Beren, and his wife Edith as Luthien.

[Blackheart]

Don't doubt it at all, but does that mean that he never viewed himself as a prime creator?

Not enough information to tell.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, that's an interesting idea, but Tolkien was very religious, and I can't see him casting himself in the role of Eru.

[Blackheart]

Then what about as a Sub-creator?

As I said, I don't know if he ever did or not, but I still don't think he would have let a bit of physics stand in the way of a good story.

[TomFoolOfATook]

Of course he wouldnt cast himself as Eru. Tolkien was a hobbit all the way

[Blackheart]

Blargh. 'obbits is poison in months with R in them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Then what about as a Sub-creator?

You mean as a Vala or Maia perhaps? I think not. I just don't think Tolkien saw himself that way. I think he was a simple man that tried to lead a simple life. He didn't really look at himself as being a greater being IMO. The part of the story that reflects him and his wife is Beren and Luthien. It is a fact that Tolkien had stated himself. As is discussed in another thread, the names of Beren and Luthien appear on his and his wifes headstones.

[Wulažg]

In LoR hetook the role of merely being the person who had translated Bilbo's book, so he could have thought of himself in that regard. I wish he had since then we could have had an entire LoR in elvish and that would make my life so much easier.

[Blackheart]

He may have never envisioned himself as creator or subcreator, but he certainly acted in those roles.

So it's not an outlandish stretch of the imagination to compare them, at least as far as his writing goes.

[Dwarven Sen]

Bearing in mind that i'm shivering in fear of the neeker breekers here:-

Tolkien never thought of himself as any part of creation. He couldn't because he was very religious and it would have been like saying he was a god.
The valar and maiar are there as people for eru, like angels. he simpley thought of himself as a member of the earth, the middle earth. obviously he thought of himself as an important member, but a member nonetheless.

Bumblebees stay back, i've got an axe and i'm not afraid to use it

[Blackheart]

I still say he acted in those roles, whether he ever envisioned himself in the story or not.

So therefore you can make an argument that Eru would have a lot of Tolkien's ideas about what was "good" and supposed to happen, and what was "evil" and a result of free will acting contrary to his own.

[Wulažg]

No good writer can completely seperate their views form their works, especially in a universe like Arda which he spent so much time creating.

WooHoo! 100th post

[Dwarven Sen]

Well done.

Every character had an aspect of tolkien, because when you create a character you have to have an image in yuor head and that can only come from him, even if it is based on someone, they are in the authors head, and interpretted by him alone.

[TomFoolOfATook]

I agree with Dwarven Sen all characters are a product of the authors imagination and therefore have a bit of the author in them. (except the evil characters- they represent what the author despises)

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by TomFoolOfATook
I agree with Dwarven Sen all characters are a product of the authors imagination and therefore have a bit of the author in them. (except the evil characters- they represent what the author despises)

The evil would then still be "of the author", would it not?