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04-07-2006, 09:16 PM | #81 |
Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation
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Dang...so I was arguing for nothing...
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
04-08-2006, 01:56 AM | #82 |
Spaceman Spiff
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This is a very interesting topic. Like the others, I always assumed the Nazgul were in complete and utter control, with or without their rings. Now that I've read through this thread, I have to agree with you Gordis. The Nazgul wanted out.
As to others being unaware of someone wearing the ring, IMO the ring hadn't taken control of them yet. Sure it had Gollum and Bilbo hooked, and later Frodo, but did Sauron have enough power then to "feel" the Ring at that time? That doesn't really explain why Gandolf of Elrond couldn't feel the ring, but the Ring has a will of it's own right? What if it was still trying to stay incognito and didn't want to be 'felt'? Galadriel knew the ring was coming to Lorien but do you think she knew the exact moment it entered her woods? I don't know. Maybe this is to many questions to ask, but; I have one more,well two more. Do you think if the WK came across the Ring, he would take it for himself? Even if Sauron had his ring(the WK's) wouldn't the power of the one Ring give the WK enough power to take back his own ring and even defeat Sauron? I could be totally confused here.
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04-08-2006, 04:37 AM | #83 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Your hypothesis that a nazgul dies, if he takes off his Ring, is logical enough. Only Tolkien decided otherwise, and he was the Creator of his universe and the only authority in it. |
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04-08-2006, 05:16 AM | #84 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Very good points. Sure, the Ring tried to make its presence known to EVIL beings, but probably tried to remain as inconspicuous as possible with Gandalf and Erlond. Sauron at the time of "the Hobbit", most likely had only 3 dwarven rings in his possession, and he was intent on searching in the River, not trying to detect someone wearing the One. Quote:
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...2&page=3&pp=20 |
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04-09-2006, 04:29 AM | #85 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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My opinion is that the Nazgul were free and holding their own rings for much of the third age, but not for as long as some here believe.
We know (from Tolkien’s Letters) that Sauron brought the One Ring with him to Numenor during the second age, so he had little reason to take the nine rings from the Nazgul. After Sauron’s defeat at the end of that age Sauron “forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away”. What happened after that? I would guess that after many years (but long before the Nazgul took Minas Ithil) Sauron began collecting the nine rings. Since Sauron still had a hold in the spirit world (where the Nazgul primarily existed) he could probably interact with the Nazgul. He probably used trickery and guile rather than force to obtain the first ring and then used his new servant, then servants to get the others. This may well be the inspiration for Gandalf’s quote to the Council concerning the Nazgul as the “hunters before whom all have fled or fallen” (though this may be a bit unlikely). Do we know of them hunting anyone else before Bilbo/Frodo? To those who would object to Sauron being able to keep a ring without being fully bodied, remember that he carried the One Ring from Numenor to Middle Earth after his body had been destroyed. During this time the Witch King came to Angmar. He probably came to get a kingdom of his own and a Palantir, but he may also have come to secure himself from Sauron’s pursuit of his ring. (On a side question, do you think he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain? Some of his actions may suggest this. Gordis said something similar to this in post 12.) Why would the Witch King be the only Nazgul in Angmar? It was suggested earlier that he ordered the others to stay in hiding to keep his identity from the Wise, but why. The Wise usually have to be pushed into taking any action against their enemies and there are examples of them living very near evil powers for thousands of years without doing anything. As for him trying to hide his identity from Sauron, this makes more sense to me, but I think he would have a very difficult time doing it. I believe that after Angmar’s fall and the Witch King’s subsequent flight, Sauron, with the help of the other (now enslaved) Nazgul, captured the Witch King and his ring. Remember that very soon after this all the Nazgul returned to Mordor and shortly thereafter took Minas Ithil, much securing Sauron’s true home. More evidence that the Witch King is now serving Sauron is that in contrast to his years in Angmar (where he seemed to follow an aggressive expansionist policy) he remained quiet after taking Minas Ithil, even when Gondor was vulnerable. Maybe he was just waiting for Sauron or maybe he had lost his ambitiousness since he was no longer his own master. Part of the reason I came to these conclusions regarding the timing of Sauron’s recovery of the nine rings is that I find it very unlikely that both Nazgul with rings and Nazgul without rings would be living together in Minas Morgul. Also if all the Nazgul in Minas Morgul had their rings, I think it would be improbable for Sauron to retrieve them without fighting a large battle that the people in Gondor would have noticed and documented. Last edited by CAB : 04-09-2006 at 04:34 AM. |
04-09-2006, 01:51 PM | #86 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Great input, CAB!
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You are right, it is a short note in the letters, but it seems that Tolkien was positive about Sauron taking the One to Numenor. And (returning to my opening post) there was no real reason for Sauron to take nazgul rings and bury them in the Barad Dur foundations, as long as he himself kept the One. Even when the Siege of Barad-Dur was turning ill, he must have known that with Rings, the nazgul could escape unharmed very easily. Sauron could also have escaped, IMHO, if he wouldn't challenge Gil-Galad et al. in his arrogance. Quote:
But I don't think that Gandalf's quote speaks of those times. Thrain was not hunted, he simply disappeared. Hunted nazgul were not Gandalf's concern. And few must have known of these hunts. I believe this quote simply refers to the Hunt for the Ring in the Vales in Summer 3018 and the flight of Rangers at Sarn Ford in September 3018. Alternatively, it might refer to some unknown "hunts" in Harad or Khand that resulted in bringing these countries under Sauron's dominion after his return to Mordor. Quote:
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It has taken the Witch-King 5 years (TA 1975-80), to come from Angmar to Mordor, where he gathered the other nazgul. There was surely an easy way from Northeastern Angmar into the Vales (without it Angmar couldn't have existed on both sides of the Misty Mountains). So, probably, the Witch-King went down the Anduin Vale, and got caught by Sauron. BTW - a crazy thought - in 1980 " The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgûl. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI" Tale of Years. Perhaps it was Sauron who woke up the Barlog in 1975 and used him in the hunt for the Witch-King? Then the grumpy Barlog returned home in a very bad mood and attacked the unsuspecting Dwarves. Quote:
Last edited by Gordis : 04-09-2006 at 05:02 PM. |
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04-09-2006, 04:17 PM | #87 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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Thank you for your comments Gordis. Thank you also for starting and reopening this great thread.
I would like to say that I do think the Witch King was the only Nazgul in Angmar. The point I was trying to make is that maybe he used Angmar to secure himself from Sauron. Maybe he anticipated the capture of the other Nazgul and knew eventually they would come for him. This might even help explain his desire for the Palantiri. Also I would like to say that I believe that the Nazgul wouldn’t have stayed together while free from Sauron’s will. This would help explain why there seem to be no other Nazgul in Angmar, how Sauron was able to reacquire their rings, and strengthens the point that when the Nazgul came to Mordor as a group, they did so under Sauron’s control. I admit that Minas Morgul taking no action against Gondor seems to be a weakness with my idea. However it seems just as strange that the Witch King, serving only himself, would remain neutral during Gondor’s vulnerable times unless his wars with Arnor were fought almost solely for the Palantiri. Yet we both agree that he considered himself the rightful King of the Dunedain. (By the way, your example of him revealing his crown in Minas Tirith is better evidence than anything I thought of. Perhaps Sauron gave him this crown and promised him the same lordship he promised the Mouth to inspire him to fight well against Gondor, since his motivation was sometimes questionable.) Sauron may have wanted the pleasure of defeating Gondor himself and the attacks he inspired by the men from the East and South were merely meant to weaken, not end, Gondor. He may have even been angry with the Witch King for completely destroying Arnor. (Also I am not sure what you mean by Sauron not visiting Minas Morgul. I agree that he probably didn't but if he already had all the Nazgul's rings why would he need to?) As for the Balrog suggestion, I think it is a bit unlikely (it seems you do also). You would think a Balrog flying (or maybe I should say traveling) around Middle Earth would attract a lot of attention. The timing is interesting though. Maybe Saruon was using his will to try to draw the fleeing Witch King to him and this woke the Balrog. Or better still, maybe after Sauron obtained the Witch King’s ring his strength grew to the point that the Balrog was disturbed from it’s sleep. As you say, Sauron’s growth may be directly attached to his ring gathering. I wanted to give my opinion concerning one other matter which was part of the earlier discussions; the extent of Sauron’s control of the Nazgul. I think a good comparison is the description of Saruman’s voice. When the voice of Saruman (or comparatively Sauron’s will) was directed at someone, that person found it very difficult to resist (in the case of Sauron/Nazgul probably all but impossible), but when the voice/will was turned elsewhere the person/Nazgul recovered some free will. In my opinion, Sauron couldn’t constantly be controlling the Nazgul this way. It is probable that exerting full control over even one Nazgul took a great deal of concentration. Sauron had other things to think about. I think most of the time Sauron controlled the Nazgul just as he controlled his other servants, primarily through fear. Last edited by CAB : 04-09-2006 at 04:29 PM. |
04-11-2006, 04:05 PM | #88 | |||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
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Thanks for your interesting comments, CAB. I appreciate them greatly.
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Or, are you suggesting that they disliked each other so much, that simply couldn't stay together by their own choice? (By the way, I would easily believe it, given the experience I got in our recent nazgul RPG! ). Quote:
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Also, IF by 2063 he had already collected the 9 rings why didn't he return to Mordor immediately? Why wait a thousand more years? Why return to Dol Guldur? Did he really need the 3 dwarven rings so badly? But if he had but a few nazgul rings, that makes sense that he waited to collect the Dwarven ones and to try and collect some of the Three (I believe that the attack on Celebrian at the Redhorn Pass was in fact a trap for Galadriel and her Ring.) just to grow strong enough to defeat the nazgul in Morgul. Also, why in 2942 he returned to Mordor "in secret", if it was not being held against him? Nine years passed before he declared himself officially. Therefore, CAB, your theory has some weaknesses, but so does mine. I enjoy our discussion very much. Quote:
So he woke the poor Barlog up, and told him to get some dwarven rings and to guard Moria and the Redhorn Pass. Later that was the usual road between Imladris and Lorien that all the wielders of the Three took - for the gatherings of the White Counsil etc. Quote:
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04-11-2006, 07:33 PM | #89 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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You make many excellent points here as always Gordis. I agree that both of our theories have weaknesses. This is a difficult set of questions to answer. Last edited by CAB : 04-12-2006 at 03:28 AM. |
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04-11-2006, 07:40 PM | #90 |
Sapling
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
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what areas did each of the nine kings rule before they were enslaved?
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04-11-2006, 08:05 PM | #91 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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Well, Gordis can give you a better answer than I can. However I don’t think all of them were kings. Three of them are supposed to be from Numenor. The Witch King is one of these and some theories have him as the King of Numenor but certainly the other two aren’t. At least one of the other six Nazgul is an Easterling. I can’t remember if Tolkien says where the others are from. There is very little information about the Nazgul’s origins. Maybe Gordis or someone else will be kind enough to give us the other details.
I see this is your first post here. I am quite new myself. Welcome to the Moot. |
04-11-2006, 09:53 PM | #92 |
Sapling
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
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Power of the nazgul
What power could sauron draw from the rings of the nine, what power did the nine have, aside from fear of them and their skill in battle?
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04-12-2006, 04:10 PM | #93 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
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But seriously, some sort of tacit peace agreement must have existed. As long as both sides kept to certain boundaries. Quote:
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Many excellent points, CAB! Thank you. |
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04-12-2006, 05:16 PM | #94 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Welcome to Entmoot, Celeborn!
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I think, CAB told you already all the known facts. The only named nazgul was Khamul, the Shadow of the East, Second to the Chief, Sauron's Lieutenant in Dol Guldur. He was an Easterling. The Witch-King and 2 others were Numenoreans. There are some speculations that Gothmog the Lieutenant of Morgul, might have been a nazgul as well, the Third. I have seen some speculations that likely three were Numenoreans, three were Easterlings and three were Southrons. But that is not backed by any quote. CAB is right, not all of them were kings. Some were "sorcerers and warriors of old" Quote:
As for the power of the Nazgul that we see in LOTR, it was the power of RINGLESS nazgul. They inspired fear all by themselves. Also the sorcery that the Witch-King demonstrated at the Ford (breaking Frodo's sword at a distance) and in Minas Tirith (breaking the Gates), all this was done without a ring. Quote:
What powers did the nazgul possess while still having their Rings? We are not told. It is hinted that the Witch-King had been able to meddle with the weather, make snow and thaw at will. But, more importantly, the Rings likely served as keys between the Seen and the Unseen, the World of Light and the World of Shadow. Most interestingly, there is so very little reports about nazgul during the Second Age. Only once they were seen, in SA 2251. And no reports till TA 1300. Nothing else. Why so? I suppose they could use their Rings to appear normal mortal men. This way they could pass unnoticed, even rule countries, without anyone guessing their identity. The Witch-King ruled Angmar for a long time, and no one knew who he was. Of course, it is only a speculation. |
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04-12-2006, 06:00 PM | #95 |
Sapling
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4
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without rings and no black clokes and nothing on would the nazgul apear as ghotes, a mist or would they just be invisible?
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04-12-2006, 06:46 PM | #96 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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And that one is canon (Unfinished Tales, the Hunt for the Ring) |
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04-12-2006, 08:07 PM | #97 |
Spaceman Spiff
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Gordis and CAB, my knowledge and insight of ME is dim in comparison to yours. I enjoy reading your guy's post and theories and I don't really have anything to add, but; I do have some questions you two might be able to answer for me.
The WK was intelligent and a great battle enginner. He had to have some inkling that Sauron would return and it would be better for the Nazgul to stick together rather than spead out. There isn't any info on where the other Nazgul were at that time right? Could he not have them close by(in disguise)and then pull them out when he had established his empire in the north? Maybe he(WK) didn't know when or how Sauron would return and that's why he picked Angmar. It was far enough away from Mordor and would give him time to make a plan if Sauron did come for him. I mean, if he sat the other's down and explained it to 'em they would get it, right? I had a funny skit with how this convo might go with the Nazgul in party hats celebrating the Ring being lost in the Anduin, but I erased it.
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04-13-2006, 06:10 PM | #98 | |||
Elven Warrior
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I am flattered Faramir. I could say the same about Gordis’s knowledge being greater than mine.
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Personally I don’t think the Nazgul remaining together was very likely despite the advantages. Put yourself in their shoes. You are a mighty leader and have things your way most of your life, then you are turned into a wraith and are forced to work for someone else in the company of eight similarly unlucky individuals. When you become free would you prefer to remain with these reminders of your servitude and bitterness who were all used to having their own way, or to return to your home and try to recapture some of your old life and glory? All the Nazgul may have attempted to, or succeeded in, essentially retaking their old lordships. If they were in the East and South we wouldn’t expect to hear of these events. Of course they would be much more vulnerable to Sauron in these areas than the Witch King was in the West. Quote:
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As I see it, the Witch King’s story in the Third Age is rather tragic. All seemed to be going according to plan. He may have been sitting in the great chair in Fornost, wearing his crown, thinking “I have taken Arnor, soon it will be Gondor’s turn, then Sauron will be forced to serve the King of the Numenoreans once again.” In his overconfidence born of great success he lost his kingdom and security and fled east. Soon thereafter he was met by his old, now ringless, companions and his old chain. |
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04-13-2006, 06:22 PM | #99 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks, Faramir and CAB.
I have only time now to post my prepared reply to Faramir. I will answer to your post tommorrow, CAB, sorry! Quote:
First of all we do know what happened to the nazgul after the War of the Last Alliance: Quote:
Most likely, as CAB suggests, they immediately dispersed: they had no reason to stick together, when Sauron was no more. I think most of them, especially the Easterling, established kingdoms of their own in the East. The Southrons may have done the same in the South- anyway likely each one sought his own people. The Witch-King hardly wished to rule "barbarians', only Numenoreans were worthy. And he believed to be their only rightful King. I think (although there is little prove of it) that during the first millennium of the Third Age, the Witch-King may have been in Harad and Umbar, among the Black Numenoreans there. They should have welcomed him warmly. We know that by TA 1000 Gondor reached the summit of its power. In 1050 Ciryaher/ Hyarmendacil "utterly defeated the Men of the Harad, and their kings were compelled to acknowledge the overlordship of Gondor" I think, that was the time when the Witch-King decided to try his hand in the North, where Arnor was getting weaker and weaker. Probably, he went East first (1050-1300): to invite the other nazgul to follow him, but they refused. The others must have been happily ruling their own countries (may be even empires) in the East. They deemed themselves safe. Why would they abandon everything and come to start all anew with the Witch-King? I am not sure when the Witch-King first learned about the resurrection of Sauron. Probably he understood who caused the Shadow in Mirkwood before the Wise, as he must have "felt" Sauron better. Also, the Wise first took Sauron for one of the nazgul, but the WK must have known where each of the other Eight were. I think by 1300, when the WK came to Angmar, he had a very good idea who was hiding in Mirkwood. So he established his capital not in the hospitable lands of the upper Vales of Anduin (which were also part of Angmar), not near Mount Gundabad, the greatest orc stronghold of old, but in the wastes of the North, on the other side of the Misty Mountains. Now probably, some of the other nazgul, if they lost their kingdoms or simply desired to see the WK, might have fallen prey to Sauron in Mirkwood, while travelling to Angmar. The others learned that the way was perilous, and stayed away. |
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04-13-2006, 07:00 PM | #100 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
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Gordis I would agree with the likelihood of every point you make here but one. I don’t believe it was absolutely necessary for the Nazgul to be in the neighborhood of Dol Guldur to be captured. Certainly Sauron could travel. Probably no one would notice, or at least it wasn’t worth recording, if he vacated Dol Guldur for a month or two, especially in his weak condition at that time. My guess is that his spies found the Nazgul and when he believed the time right, Sauron with some of his servants (some or all of whom may have existed entirely in the “Unseen” world”) went and captured it’s ring. He probably did this with at least the first two Nazgul and then used them to capture the others. I think that the weaker Nazgul, those whose lordships were small or nonexistent, were his first targets. He then would have moved on to the stronger ones finishing of course with the Witch King.
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