01-11-2003, 09:14 PM | #81 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hi, Hasty Ent, I just now saw your post (I was still typing while you posted). I think I partially answered your question in my post that ended up just after yours, and my next post might answer more.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-11-2003, 09:36 PM | #82 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Anduril:
When I say that he cannot be understood, I do not mean that nothing can be understood about him; I mean one cannot understand the workings of His mind. One may understand certain truths about God, but to know the workings of His mind is completely beyond humankind. You know that he is above and beyond mankind simply because mankind does not and cannot understand him. Using your own reasoning, then God must have the ability, since he can do anything, to prevent himself from lying. Obviously, this could go continously in a circle for a long time, so please refer to my previous statement; the workings of God's mind and the exact specifics of his omnipotence are unable to be understood by mankind. Hasty Ent: Notice Quote:
Rian: Hurrah! Reinforcements!
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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01-11-2003, 09:49 PM | #83 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Rian. . .
I like that idea, not because it makes god(s) exist on our whims, but because I think that gods our really our own creations anyway--that is my belief as an atheist. Of course, I don't actually believe that gods exist anyway, I just liked the idea. Perhaps I just read too much Neil Gaiman, where I got the idea from in the first place I guess I'm just going to get boring and repetetive here, but I know no other way to attempt to get my point across. It's the tendency of people to say that their religion is the truth and everyone else is wrong that bothers me the most. While you Christians out there insist that yours is the right way and everyone else is wrong and bound for hell, people of other religions tend to say the same thing, neh? So who's right? Of course, you think you're right, I think I'm right. . .And I think we all believe that with relatively equal strength. What I just wish we could say is that "maybe I'm right and maybe you are, and we won't find out until we die, neh?" I'm willing to say this, anyway. And no, by saying that, I am not implying doubt in my own beliefs. I believe very firmly that when we die, we're dead, that's the end. No heaven, no hell, that's just it. Furthermore, I do not fear death, but that's something else anyway. . .but the point is, what I am saying by that 'maybe' is that I have my beliefs, you have yours, I respect that, I think I'm right, but who am I, a mere mortal () to say? As to my question about why we cannot simply get along. . .well, your answer, Rian, is according to what your faith says. Buddha says something similiar, neh? Well, perhaps we are too greedy/selfish/sinful to get along. But I do believe we can make an effort toward general understanding. I tend to be rather cynical sometimes and I have little faith in humans, that we can actually get along, but I think there may still be hope.
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01-11-2003, 10:27 PM | #84 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: I'll have a strong Atheist with cream and sugar please..
Coney, I just love your little sub-titles
Well, I now have my cup of tea with cream and sugar with me *sip - ahhhh!* (we don't have any athiests in our house, just English Breakfast ), and I'll try to put some of my thoughts down in this post about Hell. *looks back to Coney's original question* Oh, actually it was "what do Christians think happens to non-Christians after they die?" Well, the short answer would be (and I'll put it in blunt language on purpose, because let's go ahead and deal with the "worst" version of it) that they spend eternity in Hell. However, the 'short' answer doesn't always express the entire truth of a situation. For example, say our dog Buddy is out front playing with our kids, who are playing with their new remote-controlled toy car, which (being boys!) they chase the dog with, and he gets nicked by one of them; my daughter runs in and tells me "Buddy just got hit by a car!"; true statement, but doesn't convey the whole truth, does it? So let me expand a bit. One major concept that needs to get straightened out, and that some of the Christians here have been explaining, is that there is an absolute truth out there about how things are. Now we, for our own reasons (which we can get into later, if you would like to, but right now there's lots of other things I'd like to deal with first ) believe that the Bible is the correct statement of the absolute truth. Many other religions have some of the truth contained in them - the parts that agree with the Bible. But the Bible is the inspired Word of God and contains the truth. What are some of the truths in the Bible?
There's lots more, of course, but these are some of the more pertinent ones to the topic. SO - what is Heaven? Well, I guess one way of describing it would be Heaven is where God is revealed to reign in majesty and power. It is also a place where "He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (Revelation 21:3,4). BTW, God IS in authority over everything; the fact that some people don't acknowledge that doesn't change that it is true (i.e., people can say "I don't believe that Blair is PM!", but that doesn't change the fact that he's the one currently at 10 Downing street, does it?) (gee, I hope I got that address right! ) He is withholding his judicial authority to some degree from the people on earth to give people time to seek Him; however, as Creator, He has complete authority over all His creation, whether they like it or not. And this is a good thing, because He is a good and loving God (but not in the senile, grandfatherly way that some people think of him! "oh, as long as everyone has fun, it's fine with Me!" It is in a beautiful and powerful way, and a way that is not content with leaving His loved ones in their sin. (Rats, this post is too long, I have to split it up ...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-11-2003, 10:29 PM | #85 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Continued ....
Now a Christian is one who has acknowledged Jesus as Lord, voluntarily and joyfully - IOW, he/she has CHOSEN to accept God's free gift of Christ paying the penalty of their sin for them. A non-Christian is one who does NOT acknowledge that fact, and basically wishes to be their own God. To a Christian, therefore, heaven is an incredibly joyful place - as King David said, "Better is one day in Your courts than thousands elsewhere!". To a non-Christian, it would be a place of horror - they have chosen to defy God, deny His Existence, declare that they themselves are god. In the end, the Bible says that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. The Christians will do it joyfully and gratefully; the non-Christians I think will do it in anger and defiance; they will not even want to be there.
I think the best summary I've ever heard on the subject goes something like this - "The Christian will joyfully say to God - "Thy will be done!"; to the non-Christian, God will say sorrowfully "thy will be done....." and their will is to NOT be in the place where God is revealed to reign in glory, so Hell is the only other option - it is where God isn't. I hope this helps you out some - it is indeed a sorrowful topic, but the option to choose self over God, that God gave to us, is the thing that makes love of God meaningful. IOW, we are not puppets created by a puppet maker and forced to love Him. There was a big discussion of free will a few months ago in the "Iluvatar created Melkor evil" thread in the ME forum if anyone wants to read it; I posted extensively over there, along with some other Christians. This is just my first cut at the topic, and I'm sure I left a lot out, and I probably didn't state some other things very well, so please feel free to ask me to clarify or expand, and I'll do the best I can. You guys are worth the effort, because you are very valuable in God's eyes, and in mine.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-11-2003, 10:57 PM | #86 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, Gwaimir, I like your posts! Does your name have anything to do with Gwaihir the eagle?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-11-2003, 11:19 PM | #87 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oy ...
*sings "where shall I begin?...."*
OK, some quickies - Gwaimir, I had no problem AT ALL understanding what you meant when you were talking about God being beyond our comprehension. I saw how Andúril picked apart your statement due to it being a little less precise than it could have been. You might want to word it something like "People cannot completely understand God", since his pick seemed to be with the "complete understanding" part, which was ONE WAY that your statement could have been read. However, I think it was an unnatural and forced way, and I imagine most people understood what you meant. I think we can certainly understand certain aspects of God to some degree. God Himself tells us about Himself in the Bible - why would He do that if we couldn't understand it? Biblical writers say things about God that are confirmed in the Bible - this shows understanding. The Bible also clearly says that He is beyond our comprehension - not completely outside of it, but "higher" - "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:9) Just like my cute little doggie (alright, so he's 80 pounds, but he's a big baby!) understands that I take care of him and play with him, but doesn't understand why I take him to that awful smelly place where some lady pokes him with a sharp thing - I'm beyond his understanding in this area.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-11-2003, 11:38 PM | #88 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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****** please do not respond to this post yet - one of the kids just got home 20 minutes early and I'm not done with it! I have to post it or I'll lose it, though. I'll finish up in a few minutes *******
Further edit - well, I just used up the 20 free minutes I had by putting kid #3 to bed - I'll just have to copy this post into a new post tomorrow or Monday and finish it then! Life with kids .... Never a dull moment Quote:
There are so many things that I disagree with here, Andúril, and I only have a few more minutes before the kids get home and the bed-time party starts! Oh well, let's see how fast I can type.... I think that as far as the discussion between the two of us goes, we're going to end up just saying we disagree with each other. We can try to discuss a little longer, but I think it's going to end up that way. One of the main problems here is that you are introducing terminology like it is an accepted fact that everyone agrees with; for example, "strong" and "weak" omnipotence. I completely disagree with the usage of those terms. And I will not accept them on your authority, because as I said earlier, you do not have any authority over me.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-12-2003 at 12:11 AM. |
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01-11-2003, 11:52 PM | #89 | |
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"If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31 |
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01-12-2003, 12:08 AM | #90 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
However, having been saved, the "doing good" part is the natural and proper "fruit" of our salvation - i.e., the natural consequence of our atonement and faith in God. And we "do good" out of obedience and love to God. And I absolutely agree with what Khamul said - "you realize that you are going to sin and when you do, you need to confess what you have done to God and ask forgiveness." - that's very important, and God clearly commands that in 1 John 1:9, and it's for our good.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-12-2003, 04:22 AM | #91 | ||
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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I think what I'm trying to express here is I believe we ought to have a sense of. . .I guess. . .humility in terms of our beliefs. NOT denying your beliefs, that's not what I mean! Rather, just accept the fact that we won't know until we die. That you are sure you're right, but not to try to press your beliefs and your religion on others. Instead of telling people they will go to Hell if they do not accept Jesus at their Lord and Savior, just enjoy your own faith in God, and leave others to their own religion. I know you might think that it is doing a kindness to 'warn' people that they will go to hell if they do not accept Jesus, but I frankly find it rather rude. I don't think it's compromising your beliefs to NOT tell people this, rather it's being. . .polite. Does that make sense?
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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01-12-2003, 05:42 AM | #92 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 01-12-2003 at 05:45 AM. |
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01-12-2003, 05:59 AM | #93 | ||
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We are not things. |
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01-12-2003, 03:36 PM | #94 | |
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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01-12-2003, 03:45 PM | #95 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-12-2003, 03:48 PM | #96 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-12-2003, 04:00 PM | #97 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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01-12-2003, 04:30 PM | #98 |
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Thanks for the reply Rian
*tiptoes away from the thread........read quite a bit of the bible last night.....doesn't like it, not at all* *Will keeping reading the thread tho* |
01-13-2003, 02:07 AM | #99 | |
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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01-13-2003, 09:10 AM | #100 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Rian: Thank you.
Nope, not intended to be connected to Gwaihir, just the same language. Yes, I noticed that myself; hopefully I'll be more specific in the future.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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