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#81 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Brownie, I really enjoyed your post. I'm so glad that everything worked out for you guys.
![]() Let's see... my parents have been married for 26 years. Of my close friends from high school, all their parents are divorced. Of my close friends from university, none of their parents are divorced. Something in the water in my hometown, maybe? ![]() I'm very fond of my aunt's ex, and they are still friends and respect each other a great deal. I'm also quite fond of my uncle's ex, but they did not divorce very amicably so I haven't seen her in years. My finance won't get divorced either, don't worry. ![]() Quote:
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#82 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Jonathan and Sane, this post is a partial response to your posts as well as a response to BJ's. I'll try to give you a more in-depth and specific response later, though.
[QUOTE=brownjenkins]When dropping a relationship is an option, staying together is even more of an acheivement. I don't have interest in marriage as an "achievement". I don't care if I would look cooler to other people or feel cooler in myself, for having had a long relationship. If a long relationship is about achievement, it's about ego, and to me that's worthless. Much more important is that a sincere, deep, loving and constant relationship exist. With marriage, if my wife and I had hard times, we'd stick them out together, and if our relationship ran into trouble, the vow and the determination to fix the relationship that must come from the bond being life-long would enhance our likelihood of succeeding in sailing through the rock strewn waters without lose one another in the marital conflict. "Till death to us part," is a more serious relationship than one outside of wedlock. Quote:
I'm sure that in the past too there were marriages where the partners despised one another. However, if this was a very large number of marriages, and such families "don't really have a relationship at all," then you'd see the same societal collapse then that you see now. You don't, though. In fact, families and communities were far more close-nit than they are today. Thus it is apparent that divorce and sexual relationships outside of wedlock are bad for society at large and, according to the evidence I cited, bad for many of the individuals involved in sexual inconstancy as well. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#83 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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hum.
Divorce was fairly common in the Middle Ages, Lief, as well as operating under completely different rules.
Marriages of all classes of people were arranged by the parents of the couple. Marriages were contracted to join two families together, and no family would leave such important matters to be decided on the emotions of the people involved. Peasant girls could marry as young as 12 and boys as young as 14. Most of the time though, girls married around 17 or 18 and boys in their late 20's or 30's. The groom was almost always much older than his bride. The prospective bride and groom would probably have already met and known each other for some time as peasants tended to live in or close to the same village their whole lives. The couple were married in a simple ceremony unlike the elaborate marriage ceremonies today. The actual ceremony differed from place to place. In the early part of the Middle Ages, the Church was not very involved in the marriage ceremony and it was usually conducted at home with several witnesses present. Over the course of the Middle Ages, the Church became more and more involved in the marriage ceremony and by the end of the period, a Christian marriage ceremony almost always accompanied a wedding. Once the wedding was over, married life began. It was undoubtedly awkward for both the husband and the wife for a time until they got to know each other better. Mutual friendship and respect eventually developed among most married people and sometimes the partners also grew to love each other. The man was the head of the household in the Middle Ages and the wife was legally his property. A man was allowed and even expected to beat his wife, as long as she lived through the experience. Husbands had complete control over all of their wife's belongings and any other property that was owned by the family. The husband had the final say in all matters. However, many husbands asked for and heeded the advice of their wives. Husbands were allowed to divorce their wives for many reasons, the most popular being adultery. Wives, on the other hand, could not divorce their husbands. Towards the end of the Middle Ages, this changed slightly, and wives were allowed to divorce husbands convicted of certain crimes or away on a long campaign of warfare. In the peasant class, where everyone knew everyone else, adultery and divorce were less common then in the upper classes where the husband was often gone for long periods of time. http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/history/...dailylife.html The historian, R.H. Helmholz, confirms my observation that divorce records are virtually non-existent for upper class English families in the medieval period. However, he states they are available for lower class individuals. Here is his explanation of why there are no divorce records available for upper class families: "The absence of litigants of the upper classes is also worthy of note. It is fairly certain that the cases where the record gives no occupation for the parties did not involve people of higher standing. We can infer this because when they did appear, their status was specifically identified. Their title was given, they were specifically styled dominus, or the fact of their lordship of a manor was recorded. Several examples appears in the Cause papers at York. In fact, the York records and the thirteenth-century Canterbury sede vacante material produce almost all the litigants of the upper classes that we have. In other dioceses, few or no persons of any rank appear. This may seem strange. We usually think it was the upper classes which made most liberal use of marriage law, especially in suits for divorce. The most likely explanation for their absence from our records is that the gentry and nobility usually brought their disputes directly to the bishop, to be heard by him in person or in his court of audience … Also there is reference to marriage cases involving upper class families in most Episcopal registers. This again suggests that these people went directly to the bishop. Perhaps greater privacy was thus available." [Reference: R.H. Helmholz, Marriage Litigation in Medieval England (1974): 160-161]. If I read Mr. Helmholz' notes correctly, he found just nine cases of divorce for gentry, knightly, and noble families in the large body of ecclesiastical records he surveyed for his book. The body of records he consulted extends over several centuries. Among the nine cases he mentions in his notes is the divorce of King Edward IV's daughter, Cecily Plantagenet, from her first husband, Ralph Scrope of Upsall, which he cites in his notes on page 160. It would appear that the "greater privacy" (as Helmholz calls it) afforded to English upper class divorce litigants included the destruction of their divorce records, once their cases were heard and adjudicated. Andrew MacEwen, the resident expert in all things Scottish, tells me that there is a similar lack of upper class divorce records in Scotland as well. The only indication that a divorce transpired in Scotland among medieval upper class litigants is if one of the parties subsequently appealed to Rome. http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-10/1065025241 A messy divorce circa 1321 http://www.susanhigginbotham.com/div...eval_style.htm DRAFT INDENTURE OF MARRIAGE SETTLEMENT 1454?? This indenture made betwix Anneys that was þe wyfe of William Paston, John Paston hir sone, and John Dam on þe one partie and William Clopton, squyer, on þe other partie witnesseth that accord is take attwyn þe seid parties that John Clopton, sone and heir of þe seid William Clopton be þe grace of God, shall wedde Elizabeth, the doughter of þe seid Anneys. For which mareage the seid Anneys, &c., shall paye to þe seid John Clopton ccccth marc. in hand of lawfull mony of England; and ouer that, yf the seid mareage be holdyn with the seid Anneys, the seid Anneys shall bere þe costages þerof þe day of þe weddyng, with swech chaumbyr as shall be to þe plesir of þe seid Anneys. And þe seid William Clopton shall do his feffees make a lawfull estate to þe seid William of londes, tenementz, rentz, and seruysez to þe yerly value of xl li. [[ouer all chargez b]]orn to haue and hold to hym terme of his lyfe withoutyn enpechement of wast, the remaindre þerof to þe seid John and E[[lizabet]]h and to his heires male [[of]] hir body lawfully begotyn withoute enpechement of wast, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -41- withynne xij dayes after þe seid weddyng. And ouer that, withynne þe seid xij dayes the seid John shall do lawfull estate to be made to þe seid William of londes, tenementz, rentz, and seruysez to þe yerly value of xl marc. ouer all charges born, to haue and hold to þe seid William terme of his lyfe without enpechement of wast, the remayndre therof to þe seid Elizabeth to haue and hold to hir terme of hir lyfe withoute enpechement of wast. Also it is accorded that þe seid William shall make estate of all þe residue of his londes which he is sesid of, or any other man to his vse, to swech personys as the seid John shall name to þe vse of the seid John. Also the seid John Clopton shall do lawfull estate to be made to þe seid Elizabeth of londes, tenementz, rentz, and seruysez to þe yerly value of xxx li. ouer all chargez born, to haue and hold to hir duryng þe lyfe of the seid William. And moreouer the seid John promytteth and ensureth be þe feith of his body that he shall leve, ouer the xl li. worth lond aboueseid, to his heires and issue male of þe body of þe seid Elizabeth begotyn, londes in fee symple or in taill to þe yerly value of xl marc. in cas þe same issue male be gouernyd to the seid John as the sone oweth to be to the fadir. And &c. http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin...&division=div1 Marriage, Money and Divorce in Medieval Islamic Society by Yossef Rapoport In 15th-century Cairo, three out of every ten marriages ended in divorce. A high rate of divorce is not a modern phenomenon; there are numerous historical examples from Japan, Islamic southeast Asia and the Middle East. This book focuses on the economic, legal and social causes of Muslim divorce in the cities of Cairo, Jerusalem and Damascus in the Mamluk period (1250-1517). The prevalence of divorce counters the argument that marriage was the central foundation of pre-modern Muslim society and demonstrates that patriarchal households were not necessarily the norm. Yossef Rapoport examines gender relations in the light of high rates of divorce, at dowries, financial and economic independence of women, working women within and outside of marriage, family structure and legal aspects of marriage and divorce. His study is based on a wide range of legal and literary sources including detailed autobiographical accounts, chronicles and annals. 137p (Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization, Cambridge UP 2005 And, of course the average life expectancy was about 30, http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...12/part06.html with a 20% likelihood of dying, every time you gave birth. hard to believe they even had time to need divorce, and yet, they did. ![]() |
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#84 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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I have a great deal of trouble believing this source's claim that men could divorce women for many reasons. It's absolutely contrary to more than one source I've produced in this post . . . Maybe your source is referring to prior to the seventh century, and mine to after the seventh century. I've heard that there were changes to tighten the marriage and divorce laws in the seventh century. Whether divorce was possible back then or not, though, it certainly was on nowhere near the scale that it is now, and hence the impact on society wouldn't have been anywhere near as big as it is now. Qualitatively, for children and the couples breaking up, I think it probably would have been just as bad. But it wouldn't have had so great an impact on society as a whole, because its occurence would have been much rarer. *Goes and researches the issue for three hours.* Researching this one proved rather tough! Most of the books I have at home on the Middle Ages weren't very helpful. Only one provided any information, probably because there isn't much divorce to talk about, IMO ![]() Here's a quote from "A History of Christianity," by Owen Chadwick, page 156. Quote:
Here's a quote from a source that by its choice of language and selection of facts seems biased against the church, but which nevertheless helps to confirm what I was saying about divorce. Quote:
Here's an additional source confirming my earlier quotation: Quote:
A total ban on divorce existed, so getting a divorce was all but impossible. "Separations" kept the wife and husband from marrying anyone else afterward, so they weren't the funnest solution imaginable. To get an "annulment," you needed a church lawyer working for you, and one of the sentences in my first quotation here indicated that this was primarily done when they felt it was the only humane thing to be done. It was largely done for humanitarian reasons, and my guess is that it would have been most available to the nobility, because of the need for a lawyer. I don't have that confirmed, though. But this would not be something people sought often, though, for it wouldn't have left much opportunity for people to pick another bride. Remarriage was frowned upon in medieval society. Quote:
I don't personally view that suspicion in a positive way. But it would indicate that often remarriages couldn't follow annulments though, so neither they nor separations would leave much but celibacy available. It is quite clear that neither of these alternatives to divorce would leave an open door for much sexual freedom, though. Nowadays, if someone can get another partner, the incentive to stick with the one you have is lower than it would be if you only had one person available forever. So I don't think that even if these options for breaking up a marriage were available, they would have been much used. Also, people's expectations from marriage were lower, as they didn't initially marry for love. Kings probably could get away with more than most people because of their power, but certainly not always. King Henry VIII split the Church of England from the Catholic Church over his attempt to get a divorce. Even as late as the year 1700, in the post-Enlightenment environment (which was still very religious), Voltaire wrote that in half of Europe, it was impossible to get a divorce, and in the other half, it was very difficult. That bit of information also comes from A History of Christianity. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-14-2007 at 04:08 AM. |
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#85 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Thanks, Lief.
Here may be part of the problem.
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#86 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Another thought.
Perhaps part of what we are looking at, here, is the difference between "love marriages" and "arranged marriages". Here's a contemporary account from Bangladesh.
http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/exec/view.cgi/30/18526 And here something from Japan. “… chatted cheerfully about her 40-year marriage to a man whom, she mused, she never particularly liked. "There was never any love between me and my husband."she said blithely, recalling how he used to beat her... " her husband had never told her that he liked her, never complimented her on a meal, never told her "thank you," never held her hand, never given her a present, never shown her affection in any way. He never calls her by her name, but summons her with the equivalent of a grunt or a "Hey, you." "Even with animals, the males cooperate to bring the females some food," Mrs. Uemura said sadly, noting the contrast to her own marriage. "When I see that, it brings tears to my eyes. In short, the Uemuras have a marriage that is as durable as it is unhappy, one couple's tribute to the Japanese sanctity of family… "I think love marriages are more fragile than arranged marriages," said Tomika Kusukawa, 49, who married her high-school sweetheart and now runs a car repair shop with him. "In love marriages, when something happens or if the couple falls out of love, they split up." If there is a secret to the strength of the Japanese family it consists of three ingredients: low expectations, patience, and shame. The advantage of marriages based on low expectations is that they have built in shock absorbers. If the couple discover that they have nothing in common, that they do not even like each other, then that is not so much a reason for divorce as it is par for the course…. One survey asked married men and their wives in 37 countries how they felt about politics, sex, religion, ethics and social issues. Japanese couples ranked dead last in compatibility of views, by a huge margin. Indeed, another survey found that if they were doing it over again, only about one-third of Japanese would marry the same person. Incompatibility might not matter so much, however, because Japanese husbands and wives spend very little time talking to each other. "I kind of feel there's nothing new to say to her," said Masayuki Ogita, an egg farmer, explaining his reticence…. "If you divorce, you lose face in society," said Tatsumi Kinoshita, a tea farmer. "People say, 'His wife escaped.' So folks remain married because they hate to be gossiped about." Shame is a powerful social sanction in Japan, and it is not just a matter of gossip. Traditionally, many companies were reluctant to promote employees who had divorced or who had major problems at home…. Even in Japan, there are about 24 divorces for every 100 marriages, but that compares with 32 in France, and 42 in England, and 55 in the United States.” Who Needs Love! In Japan, Many Couples Don't by Nicholas D. Kristof http://students.faulkner.edu/depts/s...1301/japan.htm Arranged marriages, could, conceivably, have on their side family support for the marriage, a larger safety net for troubled families, or families in crisis, realistic expectations for marriage, and the advantage of people picking your spouse who know you, possibly better than you know yourself at 20. ![]() |
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#87 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#88 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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And as this source you quoted said, Quote:
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__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-14-2007 at 03:24 PM. |
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#89 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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Heh, arranged marriages.... Oh, boy, have I an truckload of experience on that!
Considering I was in one. What made them durable was that you didnt have a choice to get out. And once you had kids, which was generally soon after the marriage you were well and truely stuck. Fortunatly, that has changed somewhat, and now for its mostly symbolic gesturing then hard familial politics. (For the societal structure that I am familiar with in Iran, I cant vouch for other places)
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
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#90 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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According to the source Earl and I cited, in the Middle Ages, "mutual friendship and respect eventually developed among most married people and sometimes the partners also grew to love each other." So I'm not sure if the Islamic experience with arranged marriage is the same as the Christian one. Also, I don't know that your experience with arranged marriage is representative of that of Islamic arranged marriages in general. But I have heard that extreme Islamist governments often treat women very badly. I'm certainly sorry you had a bad experience with this ![]()
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-14-2007 at 03:32 PM. |
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#91 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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*shrug*
It wasn't terrible, and I was let out of it by my family. They were cool about it. And it could have been much worse. I've had mixed reviews with the arranged marriages. Generally speaking, they are done to the economic benefit of both families as much as possible, and most of the time the match isn't made with the actual couple in mind. Whether or not they two prospective spouses match, that's left up to whether or not the relations planning the marriage actually bother to take time to see if there is a good match between the two people.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
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#92 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Thank **** for divorce, or else I would still be stuck with my first wife, and we would almost certainly be miserable, along with everyone else within a five mile radius. Guiding principles: 1) put the kids first, 2) put them second as well, cos they're ungrateful sods by nature and won't be able to see how hard you're working to put them first and might end up thinking it's their fault or something, and THAT would be a VERY BAD THING, 3) swallow your pride (necessary for 1 and 2), 4) get a good lawyer. Agree with BJ - if anything it's too easy to get hitched |
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#93 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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These first 3 steps.
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#94 |
The Dude
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: at the altar of my ego
Posts: 1,685
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My parents divorced when i was still a wee child, if they hadnt i wouldnt be the ****ed up person i am today...
![]() In terms of raising the children, it comes down to the quality of parenting not quantity... Id prefer one quality parent than two **** ones ![]()
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, Last edited by Millane : 04-16-2007 at 01:14 AM. |
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#95 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Millane! Woo! Welcome back.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#96 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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It's like blaming "fire" for houses burning down. The problem is not that fire exists, but that some people choose to use it to destroy houses. The problem (if there even is one, which I don't believe there is) is not divorce, but the fact that people are choosing divorce. So, if one were looking for a "cause", one would have to discover why people choose divorce. The article you cited doesn't do this.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#97 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Millane! *waves happily*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#98 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Also, speaking from a Catholic viewpoint, your future place in Heaven is not really something you can forfeit...either you'll get there eventually or you won't.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#99 | |||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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To the theology thread? ![]()
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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#100 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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It is determined by your actions, but your actions are determined by god, in a nutshell. ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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