02-23-2006, 12:27 PM | #81 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Absolutely. It really IS rankling and heartbreaking to know that there are people out there receiving that kind of mental and spiritual and emotional pressure and manipulation from groups in power such as right-wing religious conservatives and the like, people like Lief here who disagree, quoting "Jesus says in the bible" smugly and officiously to back up why he disagrees.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
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02-23-2006, 12:30 PM | #82 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Furthurmore, Lief, homosexuality has nothing to do with lust. Sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with lust. It is NOT a "sin to struggle with," it is a part of who a person was born.
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02-23-2006, 12:48 PM | #83 |
Elven Lady of Speed-posting
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the cheese state
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Eep. Changing sexualities...
From a psychological perspective (sort of...so far..) I've done minor research on this subject. The so called changing of sexualities is really really a battleground subject still. The reasons many people would want to NOT be homosexual are obvious: religion, friends, family pressure, self-induced guilt, etc. But whether you can actually CHANGE homosexual urges or not goes back to the roots of homosexuality in the first place. Lots of people think they're sociocultural and/or cognitive based on pressures from friends or an innate desire for attention.(This would be the choosing to be gay) However, there is also a large group of psychologists who thing homosexuality is based on biological reasons, from the same place heterosexual urges come from. There's some lobe in the brain that apparently is bigger in male homosexuals. I'll find that study eventually, I knew about it last year and then lost it. Oops. However. If this study IS true, then it would almost completely eradicate the idea that homosexuality can be truly reversed. However, it's a VERY big possibility that homosexual urges can be suppressed, like any human urges can. I usually don't go in for Freud...but his defense mechanisms really do make sense. Rationalizing is a powerful tool...people can talk themselves into and out of a lot. I have no doubt that some people, with the help of spirituality, etc, can effectively talk themselves out of feeling homosexual urges. So I'm arguing semantics basically. But I'd still be a bit wary of actually saying someone can CHANGE their sexuality...a probably very biologically based sexaulity. You can hide it, yes, but I personally see no reason this should be necessary.The end!
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Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.) |
02-23-2006, 02:13 PM | #84 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Well, I am not suscribed to any religion or their respective books and I keep god in my heart. I think I am one of the luckier ones that can just hold open conversations with Him/Her/It. But what I have for my...ack...there really needs to be a better word for this...Beh Junam Bassteh. Its not lust, what desire there is is in the form of just wanting her near me.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
02-23-2006, 03:03 PM | #85 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-23-2006, 04:03 PM | #86 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'll have to do a coupla posts here, tho, because my responses will be a bit long. But I'll try to keep all the short responses together in the future and avoid the unnecessary "triples" - I think the thread will be more readable that way. I know what you mean about the editing, though, and that's another reason why I just make another post. I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to edit, even only after a few minutes, and then people totally miss what I had edited in, then I end up putting a lame post that says "Go back and read my edit", then I figured I might as well just do a new post instead of an edit because it's the same number of posts! (if that makes sense). [/rambling]
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-23-2006, 04:26 PM | #87 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Let me see if I can do a more careful explanation myself, and then see what you (and others) think. Personally, and not looking at any other person - PERSONALLY, I find the idea of sex with women not appealing. PERSONALLY, I find the idea of sex with men appealing. Now that is a description of what some would call my sexual urges, my sexual orientation, my sexuality, etc. etc. That is what is in my HEAD (heart, whatever). NOW - t'other day, there was a repairMAN here to fix our flooring. He had dark hair (I'm a sucker for dark hair!), and a GORGEOUS smile and eyes. Question - why didn't I rip his and my clothes off and have crazy sex with him on our newly repaired flooring? After all, my sexual urges urged me to do that. Answer - Because PERSONALLY, I think sex is a wonderful, fabulous, crazy-fun thing that is so special that it has its own environment to be in, in order to be at its absolute best. And that environment is a man/woman marriage. NOW - can you see how my sexual urges (in my head) go against how I think those urges are best actually expressed? (OUT of my head) (except in the case of my husband, where my sexual urges line up with how I think those urges should be expressed). Now, if I seriously had trouble refraining from tearing off repairman's clothing and having sex with them, then I would be THRILLED that there's a group out there that has people like me who have sexual urges that want to come out in ways that they, PERSONALLY, don't think are appropriate. I would jump at the opportunity to join such a group, and discuss with people like myself the different ways that they have found helpful to control those urges and express them in ways that they think are good and right. I'm not naively saying that all those urges will disappear; but I AM saying that there are ways to control those urges and help change the direction that they find their outlet. I don't know if I'm expressing this well - think of it as a first cut - does it make sense? See, we ALL have sexual urges, and I think it's a 100% safe bet that ALL of us sometimes DO suppress their expression. For example, although I love having sex with my husband, if I think of it while we're in the grocery store, I will SUPPRESS the urge to "do it" right there. And although I love the idea of having sex with men, I SUPPESS the urge to have sex with just any man, because PERSONALLY I think it's right and best to only have sex with my husband. Do you see what I"m saying? In the same way, if a person who has homosexual urges and is expressing those urges in action comes to a PERSONAL decision that for THEM, it's not a good thing, then groups like the one I'm talking about are a wonderful help.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-23-2006, 04:31 PM | #88 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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Well, I do hope you are just exagerating the tearing off clothes and having wild sex with someone thing because that's what your natural reproductive urges wanted you to do. Because that IS NOT what I would do, I just dont feel that. Gah....well, never mind. I like you Rian, goof that you are. I think that I understood what you ment to say. I'll leave it.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
02-23-2006, 04:36 PM | #89 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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And I like you, too, you wild horsy archer and I hope things work out with your family - that's gotta be hard ...
(and the guy WAS pretty cute ... )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-23-2006, 04:42 PM | #90 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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Hehehe...I am sure he was. One fo the best looking boys I had ever met was an Apache boy who I met stateside while mucking out stables. I admit, I did have a fling with the guy after I got to know him. I miss the fellow.... *le sigh*
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
02-23-2006, 04:45 PM | #91 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Careful, lest your lady feel the need to be jealous...
That particular feeling seems to apply regardless of orientation.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
02-23-2006, 04:49 PM | #92 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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Well...He's a nice fellow, and we got to be very good friends. David Talltree was his name. (Sheesh, that is something I would expect out of a dime novel about the old west. But that really was his name....)
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
02-23-2006, 07:57 PM | #93 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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However, I do disagree with most of your above post in spite of the misinterpretations . I don't buy IR's claim that all the hundreds of thousands of homosexuals that have become heterosexual and now live happily married lives with children and full heterosexual pleasure and desire are just in denial . Besides, a lesbian I know who became heterosexual told me that in her social circle, people use to ridicule the one heterosexual girl for her heterosexuality. So that was an opposite pressure, and the change wouldn't have been denial in her case. The idea that the hundreds of thousands who have changed are all deluding themselves seems like quite a stretch to me, and I think that all of these examples are strong evidence that homosexuality is not genetic. I also think the statistics from various countries, plus just everyday experience, indicate that homosexuality often brings more lust and promiscuity than heterosexuality. Though Last Sane Person, I'm not arguing that your artistic pleasure in the beauty of people is lust. Taking pleasure in people's appearance, their attractiveness or what nice clothes they're wearing is just nice. I've experienced lust and I've experienced that simple appreciation, and they're definitely different.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-23-2006, 08:06 PM | #94 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-23-2006, 08:09 PM | #95 | ||
The Intermittent One
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02-23-2006, 08:11 PM | #96 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-23-2006, 08:18 PM | #97 | |
Elf Lord
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Outside pressure can often be so subtle that we mistake it for an innate desire. My question about those who switch from being homosexual to heterosexual: Are they really switching from one extreme to the other or is it possible that they were Bisexual all along and simply didn't have the right partner?
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
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02-23-2006, 08:35 PM | #98 | ||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-23-2006, 09:23 PM | #99 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
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Gee Jimmy Carter "lusted" in his heart. Bill Clinton lived his out. Times have certainly changed along with definitions.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
02-24-2006, 12:08 AM | #100 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Lief, gentle outside pressure wasn't included in my rant.
Rian, I see what you're going with your story. I agree with the point of your story, that you shouldn't necessarily follow all your desires, and we have a choice to follow this or not. However, I think our sexuality, the basis of our desires, is neither right nor wrong. It's the choices we make that can be right or wrong. Let's say I'm a lesbian, and married to my partner (a women, of course). Then one day I hire an electrician to install some wiring in our basement. My wife is at work, and the electrician (a very attractive woman) and I are alone in the house. It would be wrong of me to proposition her because I'm married, and I'd be cheating on my wife and causing her a great deal of hurt. It's not wrong of me to have this desire for the electrician, or to be a lesbian.
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