06-24-2006, 03:42 AM | #81 | |||||||
Elven Warrior
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06-24-2006, 12:46 PM | #82 | ||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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06-24-2006, 03:18 PM | #83 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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I have nothing to add, just wanted to say:
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__________________
Do you hear that? |
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06-24-2006, 05:03 PM | #84 | ||
Elven Warrior
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06-24-2006, 05:30 PM | #85 | |
Elven Warrior
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06-24-2006, 05:43 PM | #86 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Even later, when she knew who was the source of that "teaching", she happily used her Ring to create a little "personal paradise on Earth" and to rule it. Professor Gordis Ahem, Thanks guys! |
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06-24-2006, 05:43 PM | #87 |
Elven Warrior
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No sarcasm intended on my part CAB, sorry if it is interpretable that way.
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06-24-2006, 06:00 PM | #88 |
Elven Warrior
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No problem, Landroval. I know that you wouldn't be arguing with Gordis if you didn't respect her opinion.
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06-26-2006, 04:40 PM | #89 | ||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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Landroval has addressed the rest, but he neglected to mention Nimrodel, the perfect example of a fading elf. Quote:
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1) The Elves in the Second Age: First, Sauron begins going about Middle Earth as Annatar; he comes to Lindon and is refused admittance because for some reason unstated Gilgalad and Elrond distrust him, and distrust him enough to send messengers to the other elven lands to warn them. Proves my point: Sauron's machinations are seen through in spite of the fair form. Second, Sauron as Annatar hooks up with Celebrimor in Eregion. Just taking the statements in LoTR and in The Rings of Power, C took Sauron as he presented himself to be, and learned much from him and so made the 3. He however saw through Sauron the instant that Sauron put on the Ruling Ring (something that the wearers of the 9 and the 7 later would not be able to do), and so saw through Sauron's designs in spite of the fair form that Sauron presented himself--it took the One Ring to do it, but nonetheless happened. During all this, Galadriel had misgivings about Sauron and counseled against him and while allowed in the kingdom, Sauron saw fit to work in secret. We aren't told why Galadriel had misgivings about Sauron, (you're take is stated in an unpublished, independent note in UT), but she did. Again, no matter how fair the form, Sauron may be seen through, even if one can not be specific about why. Let's turn to the Numenoreans: When Ar-Pharazon went up against Sauron, Sauron offers no battle but rather comes in fair form and with fair words. He is taken to Numenor BECAUSE AR-PAHARZON IS NOT CONVINCED!! ("But Ar-Pharazon was not yet deceived...."). This unfortunately was exactly what Sauron wanted but it was achieved by Ar-Pharazon's doubt about him, not by his own devices. Sadly, it only took 3 years for Ar-Pharazon to be deceived and have Sauron as one of his chief advisors....but even then Sauron in his fair guise and his fair words were seen through: Amandil and the rest of the Faithful saw through him, and because they did, there came after the Downfall the Realms in Exile, led by Elendil. I. E. Once again, even knowing his identity, Sauron nonetheless comes with fair form and fair words and is seen through. That Ar-Pharazon was stupid enough to forget his initial mistrust doesn't change the fact that in the beginning he did in fact not trust Sauron. And his trust in Sauron was the undoing of Numenor-- Let's turn again to the dwarves in Book II of LoTR: The messenger says Sauron wished for their FRIENDSHIP, Rings as a sign of said, and even the promise of Moria in exchange for the "least of rings" Dain replies, "I must consider this message and what it means under its FAIR cloak." Do you think Dain is lieing, Gordis? T'would seem so. And underneath that fair cload were discerned "...that his words held both menace and deceit". Fair cloak discerned to hiding foulness. Yes, certainly, it was easier in this case for the dwarves to decide since they knew sauron, his character, etc, but the point is still the same: Sauron comes with fair cloak, but his evil intent may be seen under that cloak for those who are discerning; to those who aren't can only follow enslavement and disaster. In every case, there were those who saw through Sauron's fair cloak. QED. So why would I expect the future Nazgul to be any more suspicious? Especially those who were Numenoreans? Because Sauron's foul deceipt is discernible to the observant: Tolkien is careful in these stories to point that out. They didn't detect it, to their destruction. Quote:
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06-26-2006, 05:08 PM | #90 | |
Elf Lord
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*throws paper airplane from shadowy recesses at the back* so ... Professor "Bumbledore" Gordis heh what, i say? Do i? yes!! ( ... y'know it's how i have always imagined you! ) |
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06-26-2006, 05:10 PM | #91 | |
Elf Lord
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..well.... you live and learn as my ol' gaffer used to say! ..but's that a new one on me ..an' no mistake! best, BB (keep it up guys and gals) Last edited by Butterbeer : 06-26-2006 at 05:13 PM. |
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06-26-2006, 05:39 PM | #92 | |
Elven Warrior
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And I believe you have the sequence incorrect. According to Of Galadriel and Celeborn, they ruled Eregionl; when Sauron inspired a rebellion, Galadriel left, crossed the mountains, and founded Lorien as a stronghold against Sauron (not a personal paradise). It was still sometime before Celebrimor (sp?) discovered Sauron when the latter put on the ONe Ring, and once he did ol' C headed across the mountains and consulted Galadriel who counselled that the 3 be hidden far away from Eregion and not used (do remember that if used Sauron wearing the ONe could detect them and the thoughts of those who wore them). She then received her Ring . Her wearubg if the Ring increased her desire for the Sea and so she lost her joy in ME So: a) Lorien was established before the Ring came her way b) it was established as a fortress against Sauron and his minions c) she with her husband later ruled the kingdom for a long time without the power of the ring and d) the ring drained her of her joy in Middle Earth--hardly a personal paradise. |
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06-26-2006, 05:51 PM | #93 |
Elf Lord
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blimey ... BB tries to catch up ... so we have the good proffessor ( with the candlestick in the library), ol' Forkbeard (hello there, long time! ) and then the 2 new guys CAB and Landroval who both seem to be a baiting me with the idea that i cannot apparently read ... ...
mmm ... it all sounds interesting! Has Lord Olmer been around recently? so ...we playing team tag or what? Professor: why is the letter #246 "accursed"? Are you implying it was not written by Tolkien and that it maqy some vodoo thought-restricting power over those that read it too many times??? best (all) BB |
06-27-2006, 01:30 AM | #94 | ||
Elven Warrior
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06-27-2006, 02:08 AM | #95 | |
Elven Warrior
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Its late, so I'm gonna be quick. If you have UT, read the intro to "Of Celeborn and Galadriel". If you don't, let me say briefly that Christopher Tolkien notes that there are several contradictions in his father's handling of Galadriel's back story, that being one of them. I wouldn't have referred us to UT had it not been the obvious place where Gordis was drawing information from. On another note, regardless of which version in the end was the one Tolkien wanted, the one in the LoTR or in the UT, it is clear that one can not claim that Galadriel created Lorien as a "personal paradise on Earth" with the Ring, wrong on 2 counts--it wasn't a personal paradise and it wasn't established with the power of the ring. QED. Warm Regards, FB |
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06-27-2006, 02:11 AM | #96 | |
Elven Warrior
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Grand to have you back and in fine fettle and finer form, BB! |
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06-27-2006, 04:49 PM | #97 | ||||||||||||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Perhaps the future nazgul also looked more and more "elvish , more and more transparent, until OOPS - they disappear entirely. Quote:
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As for the other examples, as I said, people knew he WAS Sauron, so it helped somewhat to be more wary. Even in this case, though, many were deceived. Quote:
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Lorien as described by Sam Quote:
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Last edited by Gordis : 06-27-2006 at 04:55 PM. |
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06-27-2006, 04:53 PM | #98 |
Elf Lord
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wotcha Professor!
i'll read that long post sometime i have more patience! good to see ya! BB x x x |
06-27-2006, 05:41 PM | #99 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Good to see you too, BB
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