06-20-2008, 06:08 PM | #81 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
Unless and until someone is actually pregnant, (and it won't happen to you fellows) they have no real idea of the work involved. because I DO have an idea of the work involved (and I really don't care that Lief is deranged about my truthfulness ) I have an even stronger position than I did as a young person about the importance of giving people choices. Because I care about children, I want them born to people who want them. As far as life support goes, I think everyone should have a living will and make clear to their loved ones what they'd want if they needed life support. Then I think the doctor and family should do that. 'Pro-choice' means 'the woman is the person (not prospective person) most affected by this decision. It has to be her call.' Nothing about being 'pro-choice' means anyone MUST get an abortion. Women are still free to chose abstinence, or getting married, or giving the baby up for adoption, or whatever. They just can't be required to become mothers.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
06-20-2008, 06:08 PM | #82 | ||
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
06-20-2008, 06:20 PM | #83 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
06-21-2008, 12:57 AM | #84 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wandering in circles until they become triangles
Posts: 292
|
Quote:
It is a selfish thing to deny a human life, and a human is a human, in my opinion, as soon as it may become a human. A sperm cannot become a human; an egg cannot become a human. But when the two are combined, they may, in your opinion, become human. Do you see? Stop looking at it from the angle of "it wasn't," and realize that it could've been. I think it's time that humanity as a whole (myself included) started maturing and quit looking at things in terms of what was and what will be, for, in my opinion, yesterday and tomorrow do not exist. They are delusions from the absolute truth of the now. Now, there are being threatened countless lives that can exist. Now, we are faced with a choice of allowing them to be snuffed out of existence, or fighting for their right to partake in the life we all share, and deserve. Now, we must live up to the responsibility of what we, as a species, have allowed to happen, and we must now decide what to do about it. |
|
06-21-2008, 01:05 AM | #85 | |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
|
Quote:
Just thought I'd point that out. Here's my question to the anti-choice lobby. What about the women? Ignore for a second whether or not these fetuses are alive or not - I truly don't see this as the important issue. The issue to me is that most anti-choice advocates apotheisize the life of the child while downplaying the life of the mother. Do not both deserve our consideration?
__________________
Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
|
06-21-2008, 01:52 AM | #86 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Yes, Curufin, they do. It is not showing both consideration to allow one to kill the other, though.
I talked about this extensively on post 63, which was addressed to you, and which you haven't yet responded to . I'll respond to most of the other posts addressed to me tomorrow, probably.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-21-2008 at 01:54 AM. |
06-21-2008, 02:16 AM | #87 |
The Ñoldóran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mishawaka, IN
Posts: 2,050
|
Lief - I haven't replied to that post because after reading it several times I honestly didn't see the point. It's not that we're disagreeing on particulars or on a certain issue - it's that we have drastically different basic belief systems, and nothing I can say or you can say is going to change that.
When it gets away from rational debate and into the very depths of a person's moral (and/or religious) beliefs, there's really very little point in debating. It's like slamming your head into a brick wall. That's why I generally don't get involved in abortion debates. It's a rational issue for very, very few people - and I don't think anyone here would qualify for that. Most pro-lifers see it as murder, and as such can accept no arguments for its necessity. Most pro-choicers (or at least myself) see the pro-live attitude as chauvinist and mysogynistic, and playing into a patriarchal system that is attempting to take from women even control of their own bodies. And these arguments go around and around in circles, and end up nastier and nastier and more vitrolic until they spiral down into the unending world of the flame war. This thread has not headed in that direction, and I must say I'm very impressed by that. I've never known an abortion debate to stay civil for this long. That said, Lief, our belief systems are so very different that I honestly can't even say that I see where you're coming from sometimes. I'd love to have a long discussion with you over this - I'd like to understand why you believe what you believe, and I'd love to explain to you why I believe what I believe. I'm sure at the base of it, while I'm quite certain we will always disagree, we'd discover that we're both compassionate human beings who just have very different ideas of how to do the right thing. But I don't think I can go any further with you in this debate, because from my little corner of the political/religious spectrum, I'm just rather flummoxed by where you're coming from.
__________________
Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
06-21-2008, 02:26 AM | #88 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Fair enough .
For the record, I very much respect you too.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-21-2008, 02:04 PM | #89 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|
06-21-2008, 02:08 PM | #90 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
Actually, because of my pov on salvation, I kinda like this notion, but it really is no support for anti-choice political action.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
06-23-2008, 01:42 PM | #91 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
This has the reputation of being a very contentious polarizing topic but I often find that usually most people aren’t that far apart on this subject as you would first assume. You wont find any abortion cheer leaders here or twisted individuals openly delighted at the prospect of women being put in horrible predicaments because they become pregnant. I find most pro choicers tend to think abortion is a horrible choice (even if they feel a fetus isn’t sentient or fully human) but one that needs to be allowed in an imperfect world. And most pro lifers tend to really feel for the woman tremendously in most cases but simply feel a fetus is too human to be allowed to be destroyed even if it means the adult host has to suffer some because of it. I think its important to note that MOST people on EITHER side agree that theres NO good choice in the situation. That you are basically choosing the best of two possible bad choices. The only difference is which bad choice people think is the least bad.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|
06-23-2008, 04:15 PM | #92 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Most cultural associations with the word "parasite" are profoundly negative, demeaning, derogatory. Parasites are generally seen as little bad things that are good to kill if they interfere. If someone actually likes parasites, finds them cute and has a hobby of raising them, if someone enjoys their company and has family in-jokes about them, it would be valid for that person to call a fetus a parasite to his or her own family, where this definition is accepted. Because in that situation, there are no negative cultural associations, only positive ones. It wouldn't be anything demeaning in that context. The term would be one of affection, like your "fish" example. This is NOT a common association for "parasite," though. It would be an incredibly unusual aberration from what people normally think when they think of parasites. The normal associations people make with parasites are profoundly demeaning. Parasites are usually seen as harmful, bad things that it's good to casually exterminate if they interfere with your life. So to call a fetus that is monstrous, because of what the word means to people. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||
06-23-2008, 09:03 PM | #93 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
06-24-2008, 01:24 PM | #94 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I think it's an absolutely disgusting term!!! The cultural associations we have with "parasite" are that it's something small, nasty and harmful, good to kill if it gets in the way. Because those associations are connected with the word, it should NEVER be applied to a human. It's evil to do that.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
06-24-2008, 01:27 PM | #95 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
When I say "a poor term" I mean "an inaccurate term". I'm not even talking about cultural associations, I'm saying that a parasite is something which is inserted from outside, which is not the case with a foetus. I mean, if you buy outdated classical Greek ideas, sure....but we don't.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-24-2008, 01:34 PM | #96 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
But the whole point of its use is that it underlies the fact that a fetus grows within its mother host and feeds off her just as any other parasite. And by not allowing an abortion you in effect force the host to retain an organism that is detrimental to its health within their own body. In many ways its like forcing someone to keep a parasite inside them simply because you think they dont have a right to kill it. Some have even compared the fetus to a tumor which even I think is a little extreme. But hey thats kind of how cancer works right?
Put aside your thoughts about "babies" for a second and consider the following: If someone told you (or your wife) that you had a growth, an independent creature different from yourself, inside your abdominal cavity. And that this thing was continuing to increase in size at a rapid rate and had actually attached itself to your blood system and was feeding off of you. And as it grew it could lead to hormonal fluctuations, weight retention, and massive changes in your physiological make up. And worse yet, it seems that in about 9 months or so it will need to emerge right THROUGH your body to complete its life cycle, you would probably scream bloody murder and insist something be done right away. Wouldnt you? And if someone held up their hand and said no, thou shalt not kill the life inside you, you would probably think them insane or that it was certainly no business of theirs what you do about whats happening inside you. Now apply that thinking to the notion of forcing a woman to keep their fetus against their will. And maybe perhaps you can get a glimpse of why its really wrong of US to dictate to HER what she should be doing with whats going on INSIDE her body... If the fetus did not impact her LIKE a parasite none of this reasoning would apply.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
06-24-2008, 01:38 PM | #97 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Again, you're ignoring the fact that the foetus does not invade the woman, but is in fact generated inside her and (in part) by her.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-24-2008, 01:41 PM | #98 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Thanks IR. I keep getting the feeling that actual woman aren't really a priority for some folks here.
And since all the feti I know where at least partially 'inserted from outside' I think the accuracy is okay, Gwai.
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-24-2008, 02:06 PM | #99 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
I'm not even going to bother responding, since you've made it quite clear that anything I think on the matter is ipso facto discredited. Or, maybe I should try arguing for abortion, and that might change your mind.
PS:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 06-24-2008 at 02:14 PM. |
06-24-2008, 02:28 PM | #100 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
I don't think it will matter much since the argument basically boils down to whether the fetus is a human or not. You and I believe the fetus is already a child, Gwai, but other people don't.... thus the argument has to spin continuously around whether or not it's murdering a child.
Because if it were what everyone here considered a parasite, then I don't think anyone would have an objection to having it removed. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Religion and Individualism | Beren3000 | General Messages | 311 | 04-17-2012 10:07 PM |
Abortion. | PippinTook | General Messages | 1004 | 06-18-2008 06:14 PM |
Abortion and Handguns | Aeryn | General Messages | 256 | 01-31-2003 01:39 AM |
Abortion | Gwaimir Windgem | General Messages | 9 | 01-28-2003 11:05 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |