Elven Kings - Page 5

sheelova · 09-09-2001, 10:02 PM

I think Fingolfin is getting a bad rap here. Yes he did make some foolish decisions. However leading the Noldor out of Valinor was not his idea, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was against it, but many of the Noldor wanted to leave, though they were unwilling to follow Feanor. I'm not saying that he made the right decission here,I'm just trying to make a point. Another thing is that even though he never had a chance against Morgoth, it was an act of valour , not foolie, that is why Tolkien named him, " Most proud and valiant of the elven kings of old." And besides he's always been my favorite.

Ñólendil · 09-09-2001, 10:49 PM

I am not one that has 'anything against' any character, but as valiant as it was, it was also rash and foolish. One may be both brave and foolish.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 09-10-2001, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sheelova
I think Fingolfin is getting a bad rap here. Yes he did make some foolish decisions. However leading the Noldor out of Valinor was not his idea, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was against it, but many of the Noldor wanted to leave, though they were unwilling to follow Feanor. I'm not saying that he made the right decission here,I'm just trying to make a point. Another thing is that even though he never had a chance against Morgoth, it was an act of valour , not foolie, that is why Tolkien named him, " Most proud and valiant of the elven kings of old." And besides he's always been my favorite.

When I said that Fingolfin's decision was foolish, because there was never any hope of victory, I also said this choice was made more out of anger than wisdom. Fingolfin had tried even before the Bragolach to muster the Elves to attack Angband, but no one was willing to break the seige. So, when Angband attacked with "sudden flame" it was a disaster. Fingolfin's two nephews were killed, all of Ard-Galen was destroyed, and Felagund was nearly killed. I guess that would be enough to set off your temper and make you want to hurt the other guy. The trouble with Fingolfin's choice, although brave, there was never any hope. He did get in seven good wacks, but he died doing it.

adanedhel · 09-12-2001, 02:36 AM

Quote:

The trouble with Fingolfin's choice, although brave, there was never any hope. He did get in seven good wacks, but he died doing it.

I agree, and it seems to me that in doing so, Fingolfin proved more like his elder half-brother than anyone.

Feanor said, "Say this to Manwe Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Feanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. ........Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it....."

sheelova · 09-12-2001, 12:24 PM

A just argument, and I willingly admit that there was never any hope in his plight. How ever I do not agree with the comparison between Fingolfin and Feanor. True there is a fine line between rash actions, and those of valor. Fingolfin's act was not self motivated, he did not intend to put himself into a position of heroism. He did something that was not reasonable, that no other mortal ever dared, but his ultimate motivation, whether direct or indirect was love, love for those lost ( granted that's my opinion), and also what the inoccuring events portended. He believed that the Nolder were beyond redress of all the Houses, in other words their cause had become hopeless ( though it always was). Valent actions are the stuff that legends are made of ( yes I know that sounds cliched), and hopeless deeds are the fiber of Tolkien's writings. We revel in his writing because common people often achieve the impossible, or at least improbable. In this case it was nessessary that Fingolfin should try and fail, it was never concievable that he shuold succeed. How much hope was there in Beren and Luithen's plight? Though Beren's love was a more obvious motivation, his and Luithien's actions were "rash" if one wants to lable it thus. Besides the matter of who was the best elven king is, at least in part, a matter of opinion. Though maybe I should not say that Fingolfin was the best, he is at least my favorite though.

Galadriel2002 · 09-15-2001, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finmandos12
I almost cried when he died. Almost.

i was upset when he died

09-09-2001, 10:49 PM	#82
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I am not one that has 'anything against' any character, but as valiant as it was, it was also rash and foolish. One may be both brave and foolish. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

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09-09-2001, 10:02 PM	#81
sheelova Sapling Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12	I think Fingolfin is getting a bad rap here. Yes he did make some foolish decisions. However leading the Noldor out of Valinor was not his idea, in fact if I'm not mistaken he was against it, but many of the Noldor wanted to leave, though they were unwilling to follow Feanor. I'm not saying that he made the right decission here,I'm just trying to make a point. Another thing is that even though he never had a chance against Morgoth, it was an act of valour , not foolie, that is why Tolkien named him, " Most proud and valiant of the elven kings of old." And besides he's always been my favorite.

09-12-2001, 12:24 PM	#85
sheelova Sapling Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12	A just argument, and I willingly admit that there was never any hope in his plight. How ever I do not agree with the comparison between Fingolfin and Feanor. True there is a fine line between rash actions, and those of valor. Fingolfin's act was not self motivated, he did not intend to put himself into a position of heroism. He did something that was not reasonable, that no other mortal ever dared, but his ultimate motivation, whether direct or indirect was love, love for those lost ( granted that's my opinion), and also what the inoccuring events portended. He believed that the Nolder were beyond redress of all the Houses, in other words their cause had become hopeless ( though it always was). Valent actions are the stuff that legends are made of ( yes I know that sounds cliched), and hopeless deeds are the fiber of Tolkien's writings. We revel in his writing because common people often achieve the impossible, or at least improbable. In this case it was nessessary that Fingolfin should try and fail, it was never concievable that he shuold succeed. How much hope was there in Beren and Luithen's plight? Though Beren's love was a more obvious motivation, his and Luithien's actions were "rash" if one wants to lable it thus. Besides the matter of who was the best elven king is, at least in part, a matter of opinion. Though maybe I should not say that Fingolfin was the best, he is at least my favorite though.