04-16-2006, 10:06 AM | #81 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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That borders on 'deconstructionalist' thinking. There is right and wrong. Whether a person chooses to subscribe to societies mores or a given religious teaching is their choice but make no mistake about the fact.
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04-16-2006, 10:25 AM | #82 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-16-2006, 10:30 AM | #83 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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04-16-2006, 10:35 AM | #84 |
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Figures! I thought so!
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
04-16-2006, 12:59 PM | #85 | ||||
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However, when both gained political power, their first action was to slaughter dissidents. Quote:
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Unless you are saying that when any nation conquers another of a different religion it's a sign of the violence inherent in that religion except when it's Christians doing the conquering. If you blame Islam for the slaughters against Hindus then you have to blame Christians for the slaughters e.g. of Africans in the Congo or Indians in the Americas. As brownjenkins said, is it a numbers game? Christians kill 60-80 million versus Muslim 80-100 million so one religion is violent while the other isn't? [quoteYou're right to point out Communism. The Enlightenment quenched much of religion's fire, so non-religious nations took over the role of violence and oppression. Neither the doctrines of Christianity nor the views of the non-religious (I think . Haven't researched that much, though) actually urge violence. As a natural consequence, there is less violence in Christianity's history than in Islam's. I'll respond to the rest of your post and to Oz's posts soon.[/QUOTE] Again, I disagree that there's less violence in Christianity than in Islam- for one thing, the Western world has through the course of history since the founding of Christianity been far less populated than the East- an invasion of India will cause the death of far more than the the invasion of Latvia, even if the motive is the same- kill all the unbelievers. |
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04-16-2006, 01:29 PM | #86 | ||
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04-16-2006, 02:01 PM | #87 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Moderate Muslims Seek Help From the Dalai Lama
Prominent Muslim dignitaries on Saturday met for the first time with the world's most influential Buddhist, the Dalai Lama, enlisting his help in quelling fanatical ideologies within Islamic communities and improving the faith's declining image in the West.
The summit was a measure of the desperate concern among moderate Muslim leaders and scholars about religious extremism and increasingly negative views of their faith arising from Western concerns about terrorism. Indeed, Islam traditionally has not recognized Buddhism. " The main issue of this conference is to provide a platform to teach that there is no room today to say or invest in anything but love," said Imam Mehdi Khorasani of Marin County, who had extended the invitation to the Dalai Lama. "We are happy and grateful for His Holiness' decision to lend his energy to this cause." ~ the rest of this article is here: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...home-headlines Now, my point in posting this is that it looks like Muslim leaders and Islam The Religion is actually trying to do something in the pursuit of peace & a common understanding, and change things, rather than just do nothing at all. This is the way to go. Ciao, Brownjenkins & Raddy!
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04-16-2006, 02:36 PM | #88 |
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since i believe that the muhammed cartoons thread was merged with the muslims one,
did anyone see that previous two South Park episodes? It is a cartoon on Comedy Central. They were parodying/social commentating on the Muhammed cartoon incident. They almost showed him, but Comedy Central wouldn't let them. The show hasn't been censored like that in a long time. They had muhommed as a main character in Season 5 (4-5 years ago?), in the episode "Super Best Friends," - but in this climate they can't even show Muhommed on the screen for mere seconds.
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04-16-2006, 02:45 PM | #89 | |||||||||||
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One still has to note, also, that the Jews' attacks were specific. This people has sinned, so this people must be judged. That isn't at all the same as Islam's claim that Muslims must declare violent warfare against the world. I don't think Judaism has been responsible for nearly as much violence since the destruction of the Temple and the exile from Israel. The Jews over the last 2,000 years have experienced unspeakably barbarous persecution, and have done little offense to anyone until the last 100 years (the Palestinians). Quote:
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Here's what I responded to brownjenkins, when he said this to me: " No. But doctrines impact how people live their lives. If one religion commands peace and the other violence, one would expect this to show up in the number of acts of violence each religion is responsible for, and their scale. And it does. That's all." Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-16-2006 at 02:47 PM. |
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04-16-2006, 02:55 PM | #90 |
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Christians have been plenty violent in the past 2000 years. Inumerable wars of religion. also various crusades (killing of Muslims and Jews), pogroms, inquisitions, etc. killing of various native peoples (those who wouldn't convert, anyway). And Hitler WAS a Christian leading a Christian nation - he kicked all the Jews out of the military and public office and from all of German life and tried to exterminate them. Thats a good example of Christian genocide.
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04-16-2006, 03:20 PM | #91 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-16-2006, 04:26 PM | #92 | |||
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Lief, there's the example of the Natives in the Americas - it seems like in 200 years 95% of the native population died. And we're talking about tens of millions of people. Now, I realize much of the death was from the disease the Europeans brought - but still a lot died from the massacres. (Example - the Spanish conquest of Puerto Rico, or of the Inka, or of the Azteks...) I really don't think though we can, or should, start counting all th e people killed because of Christianity or Islam. It's meaningless. As I said, Lief, the muslims were generally more tolerant at the time (the Middle Ages), and unlike Christians they didn't kill anyone just because he wasn't a Muslim. The difference between Christianity and Islam these days is probably that Christianity has progressed during the last 500 years while Islam hasn't changed enough to fit modern times. |
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04-16-2006, 05:45 PM | #93 | |||||||||
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*Goes and does some research.* Yeah, it really seems that you're making a mistake there. Quote:
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Also, the Aztecs were an incredibly brutal culture. The Spanish had some good reasons for looking at them as barbaric heathens. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-16-2006, 06:13 PM | #94 |
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Lief, remember last week when I posted here a request to you that you provide some sort of abbreviated bibliography to show us? The reason why I mentioned that was I thought inherently clear, but I guess it wasn't - the reason is because each and every statement anybody makes here that you do not agree with, or respect, or believe, you ask for "citations," or research sorces to show you. Well, if you are going to continue demanding citations from everyone here, does it not follow that you yourself should be prepared to show us "citations" for the origins of your ideas? You tend to gloss over or skirt questions directed at you that you are uncomfortable with, or feel you cannot answer, so instead of answering direct questions or statements of FACT directed at you in this debate, you choose to either ignore or demand "citations."
Where are all your "citations," Lief? Because you make so many wild claims in this thread! It's kind of ironic, don't you think? And just because your teacher laughed and said that Hitler was not a Christian, doesn't change the facts. He wasn't a good christian, though, he was awful. And Osama bin Laden is not a good Muslim, either. He, too, is awful.
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04-16-2006, 07:10 PM | #95 | |||||||||
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04-17-2006, 12:50 AM | #96 |
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I read the L.A. Times article that Lotesse gave a link to, and frankly, I'm just not impressed - it was a Muslim from Marin County (a VERY rich place in California) that started the talks. Good in a sense, but I'd be a lot more impressed if a major Muslim leader from a Muslim country talked peace.
I just come back to one thing over and over - in the U.S., England, and other predominantly Christian countries, Muslims can build mosques and attend services; in some Muslim countries that we have Christians missionaries, there's no way they can do this - in fact, they are so fearful for their lives (for the mere fact of being a Christian) that we can't show pictures with their faces on them - the pictures only show their hands or their feet or something like that.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-17-2006, 01:14 AM | #97 | |
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Spock : 04-17-2006 at 09:21 AM. |
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04-17-2006, 01:20 AM | #98 | ||
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And I've said before that I don't think all Muslims are bad, or violent, or evil, or any of those other things. No stretch for me to admit that; I've already said it. I"ll repeat my second paragraph here, because I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts: I just come back to one thing over and over - in the U.S., England, and other predominantly Christian countries, Muslims can build mosques and attend services; in some Muslim countries that we have Christians missionaries, there's no way they can do this - in fact, they are so fearful for their lives (for the mere fact of being a Christian) that we can't show pictures with their faces on them - the pictures only show their hands or their feet or something like that.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-17-2006 at 01:23 AM. |
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04-17-2006, 01:47 AM | #99 | |
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04-17-2006, 06:00 AM | #100 | |
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Here's a sensible post:
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But I find the market-place thing interesting. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran embody Islamic principles in everyday life in a way that is inimical to us. However, it may also be that it makes politics more accessible and personal to ordinary people, in a way that our apathetic consumption-obsessed cultures have lost. Unfortunately, it seems that our politicians are going the same way. Interesting also that you mention Fukuyama, whose triumphalist nonsense he himself has recently acknowledged as specious. We have to ask ourselves who is selling us this story about clash of civilisations, and what do they get out of it? Basically, of course, the real crime of Muslims is to have our oil. We are approaching an energy crisis and we need to create a political environment in which it is OK to invade and take it for ourselves. Oh wait, we already did... |
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