09-06-2004, 06:06 PM | #81 | |
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09-06-2004, 07:53 PM | #82 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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They are not a nation because they do not have their own government. They are part of russia and part of the russian nation.
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09-06-2004, 08:37 PM | #83 |
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Dangerous precedent you are endorsing there. Might makes right.
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09-06-2004, 08:46 PM | #84 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Since you're talking about precendent and might making right - tell me - should the North have just let the South leave and break apart the Union then without a fight? The South "just wanted to leave".
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09-07-2004, 12:32 AM | #85 | |
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Perhaps certian treasonous rebelling colonials in 1776 may have differed with your view.... Perhaps you should have said: "Just because a group of people no longer want to be a part of a country (or Empire, like, ooohh, the British), doesn't mean they can fight for their own independance...." And we're away!
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09-07-2004, 01:09 AM | #86 | |
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09-07-2004, 01:41 AM | #87 | |
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09-07-2004, 02:20 AM | #88 |
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But if Russia give Checnya to the Chechans then they will be giving in to terrorrism and it will just encourage them. And I heard that when the children have been buries some Russians are going to take up arms against a place that they are sure was involved.
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09-07-2004, 09:52 AM | #89 | |
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09-07-2004, 10:22 AM | #90 | ||
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There was an interesting article in yesterday's paper by Max Hastings, who quoted a comment about terrorism written in the 50s: Quote:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-07-2004 at 10:24 AM. |
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09-07-2004, 10:28 AM | #91 | |
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09-07-2004, 10:33 AM | #92 | |
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The Russians already took what wasn't theirs anyway, just as all imperialstic powers do or have done. No matter who your rooting for, the killing is never gonna stop until the Russians leave.
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09-07-2004, 10:56 AM | #93 | |
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09-07-2004, 01:34 PM | #94 | |
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Im not saying anyone who conquered another land in the past should give it back. And im certainly not saying that after this unthinkable atrocity that Russia should turn around and give Chechnya their autonomy. No way. That would be ANOTHER dangerous precedent. But I AM saying that you cant justify owning something simply by force of arms. That’s equally as wrong.
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09-07-2004, 01:52 PM | #95 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-07-2004, 03:00 PM | #96 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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BTW - Chechnya isn't a country - it's part of Russia. It might have been a free country at one time - just like Scotland and Wales were independant countries, just like much of the world was at one time part of a different country. Quote:
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My feeling is Russia has a right to keep Chechnya if they want it - and especially now. For one thing - Al Qaeada is trying to get a new base of operations. Al Qaeda is working VERY hard in Iraq and I believe they have now thought that they may be able to use Chechnya if they can wrest control from Russia.
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09-07-2004, 03:21 PM | #97 |
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Interesting that you mention Northern Ireland, where peace has been arrived at by giving the Republicans genuine political representation, even after they'd attempted to assassinate the British Prime Minister and entire cabinet.
Note that the British response was not to raze Derry to the ground. It's also interesting in that the majority of the population of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the UK, which goes back to the point about terrorists: often, they do it because they don't have enough support for their cause at home. By provoking retaliation, they hope to recruit more supporters. |
09-07-2004, 04:24 PM | #98 | ||
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your rational is they dont have to give it back because they conquered it fair and square and they set up a puppet government in it fair and square so nah nah nah. and THAT kind of thinking IS EXACTLY might makes right. no getting around it. instead you SHOULD stress the point that giving chechnya their independence now would be giving in to the terrorists which is something we cant do now and ALSO attempt to make the argument well in the long run russia AND chechnya would be better off as one country IN PEACE AND COOPERATION then as two countries. And perhaps chechnyans would debate that point with you but at least its good rational and not simply sorry you are conquered. Deal with being treated like crap. That’s the way it works. Perhaps they could convince chechnya that its best to be part of Russia by actually treating them equally and not treating like utter scum as they have been since pre-soviet days. if you are thought of as dogs and scoundrels and given next to nothing under a communist regime then youd want your independence too. but if you were given the same respect as everyone else and treated fairly you could ALMOST make the argument hey yer better off with us then against us. but give up the “russia gets to conquer whoever they want because they just do” attitude. that will only inflame further the spark of terrorism which seems rather hypocrital on your part considering your point of view on other subjects. Quote:
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09-07-2004, 04:46 PM | #99 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Gaffer - yeah - Northern ireland is peaceful now - as is Britain. It is however interesting how you say that terrorists resort to violence when not all the population stands behind them. Hmmmm - then might that mean that most of Checnya does not want to break free of Russia? I agree that Britain did not raze the towns of Northern Ireland - but there was PLENTY of violence.
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09-08-2004, 10:37 AM | #100 |
Elf Lord
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Yes, that was exactly my point.
However, we don't know, since the openly separatist candidate was barred from standing in their recent elections. If a region democratically decides to secede from a state of which it's part, then how can that state legitimately deny the region's right to independence? Again, however, we don't know because the democratic process in Chechnya is flimsy to say the least. Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-08-2004 at 10:39 AM. |
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