02-23-2005, 03:56 PM | #81 | ||
Elf Lord
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In order to have true chaos, you must be able to go up AND down the energy scale at will. Randomly. True chaos would include complex forms as well as void. But things do not go up and down the energy scale. They go down, in one direction. And that is why you have these wonderful little quirks like spheres being the most common economical shape, and gravity, and cellular reactions that go one way in a predictable order. There's very little chaos at all actually... What appears to be chaos is actually unpredictability due to the vast number of possible interactions... All the interactions are individually predictable though. They don't change randomly. Quote:
A physical space with predictable laws, a genetic code to pass information about successful mutations and replication strategies, and a method for such mutations to happen. Take away any one of those things and evolution would not happen. And ALL of those things are based on predictable physical laws based on entropy. Good grief, positing that things sprang out of nowhere at the whim or command of a supreme being is more closely akin to chaos than evolution... Whether it was "directed" or not!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-23-2005, 06:30 PM | #82 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-23-2005, 07:01 PM | #83 |
The Intermittent One
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unless we are talking chaos theory, blackheart, which theorises that when a species evolves to it's environment, and becomes so well adapted, and specialised, to that environment, then any change in the environment, lets say severe climatic change per se, and the species can not cope with the sudden change, and so fall into chaos, ie: extinction. but that's not chaos in the usual sense [ie: lack of order] anyway
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02-24-2005, 02:33 AM | #84 | |
Elf Lord
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And while it has been applied to evolution (Ad nauseum I think at times) I've never heard of it applied in quite that way to extinction.... Are you referring to a similarity between extinction and pattern collapse? I think so... I'm not used to thinking of pattern collapse as chaos... Since pattern collapse is a function of the rule set, it's just part of a larger pattern that's unrecognizable... I suppose that IS why they call it chaos theory however... it certainly LOOKS like chaos...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-24-2005, 02:52 AM | #85 | |||||
Elf Lord
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I really don't have any time to respond much at this moment, but here goes for a little of your post, Blackheart.
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Further, the assembly of even the simplest cells is a near impossibly complex task. Not something that can happen in the random, harsh conditions of early Earth.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-24-2005, 03:29 AM | #86 | |||||
Elf Lord
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The oort cloud, beyond the solar wind is amazingly rich in these materials. And it's quite likely that the original "dust" cloud was very similar during plantary formation. One is confronted by the prospect of a water, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen environment (and liberal amounts of trace minerals such as sulpher) being literally SNOWED by amino acids all during it's coalescense... Quote:
Especially if you have ready made amino acids and protien building blocks falling out of the sky... But all of this is more directly genisis theory... Which may or may not be relevant to the thread...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-25-2005, 07:06 PM | #87 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm finally able to post a bit in this thead - I'll have to just pick up at various places ...
I said : "If evolution is true, isn't it true that a human can be traced back, in a direct line, to a one-celled thingy?" And IRex reponded: Quote:
When you say "this doesnt happen in one generation", I'm assuming you think it DOES happen over MANY generations, right? (and since I know you position on this issue, I'll go ahead and not wait for your answer! ) From my readings and observations, evolutionists think things like this: Here is a finch. We've observed it on this island, and observed changes in the island, and lo and behold, the finch has changed its beak structure and other things about it enough to make us decide to create a new species name for the changed finch. Therefore, a one-celled thingy can, given enough time, change into a human. Do you evolutionists agree with this? Now of course, this is one example, in one area, but do any of you evolutionists disagree with the underlying idea?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2005, 07:13 PM | #88 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(and I don't object to a made-up starting point in one sense - you need to start somewhere after all! - but I object to it being "hidden" - IOW, there's one heck of a lot of unproven assumptions that the theory of evolution is resting on, and yet so many people claim it's fact ...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2005, 07:18 PM | #89 |
The Intermittent One
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amino acids and basic protein strains existed in the waters of the earth, no dropping out of the sky and, as we all know, the basic coagulation of said amino acids produced basic viable deoxyribonucleic acids, which, as luck would have it, arranged themselves into double helixes, which quite happily brought about the first singular celled organisms over millenia
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02-25-2005, 07:29 PM | #90 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2005, 07:34 PM | #91 |
The Intermittent One
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i was nearly tempted to go , but as i like you too much, you'll have to settle with a simple
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02-25-2005, 08:09 PM | #92 |
The Intermittent One
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my post hasn't appeared????
EDIT: there it is |
02-25-2005, 09:08 PM | #93 | |
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And you do realize that computer modeling of evolution has been achieved using the same genetic factors and the constant of a changing environment. And you get something that basically looks a lot like what we see in the wild: an ever changing DNA that leads to an ever changing phenotypic signature winding and twisting from one thing to millions of years later something very much different. Simply because it takes a long time doesnt make it impossible.
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02-26-2005, 01:13 AM | #94 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I have read of several computer models used to support evolution, and I have some objections to them, as a person that has a university degree in the subject. In fact, I even tried to go on whatever that site is you like so much (what was it called? I don't recall) and post my technical objections to the simulations, but the registration process was so involved, and they seemed so bias, that I finally dropped it. Quote:
And something that I hope you can agree with me on - just because there is a lot of time, doesn't mean ANYTHING can happen! Here's what I said: Quote:
Evolution is NOT merely a matter of given enough time, there can be changes from one-celled thingys to humans and horses and birds and whatever. There must be a vehicle/mechanism involved. In the case of the walker, the vehicle/mechanism is walking, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to WALK to the sun, even given millions of years. In the case of evolution, the (current) vehicle is beneficial mutations and natural selection and buku years, and IMO, given these vehicles, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get from one-celled thingys to humans, even given buku years! The "current observations" that are being disregarded are that finches remain finches, dogs remain dogs, horses remain horses, etc. etc. etc. One might say, "but a new species evolved!", but please remember that it is people that DEFINE the species, and the bird is still a bird, and the fish is still a fish, etc. THIS is OBSERVED; it is cold, hard, scientific fact. It is merely an educated GUESS and can never be anything else that evolution on the scale of one-celled thingys to man happened. Many things, as you said, cannot be directly observed. However, things like evolution are NOT by ANY means on the same level as most other scientific fields. In evolution, we are either looking at the results of processes that occurred in the PAST (e.g., fossils) or we are looking at things in the present and EXTRAPOLATING backwards - so far backwards that any mathmetician would have nightmares about it! It's so simple - all I ever fight for in this thread is an acknowledgement that evolution MAY NOT have happened - that we may NOT have been the product of chance and natural processes. The theory of evolution starts (when people have the guts to acknowledge it) from a stacked deck (i.e., that the universe "somehow" came to be in such a way that life could start from non-life) - talk about faith! Then it moves on by adopting another faith-based tenet - that the changes were driven entirely by chance and natural causes. Then it looks for evidence to support this, and since it only has second or third hand evidence (things in the past or extrapolations), it is not too hard to manufacture ways to support the theory that match the data. Darwin started off with gradualism and Lamarck's view of inheritance of acquired characteristics (i.e., giraffes stretching to get leaves off the top of trees will stretch their necks longer and PASS THIS ON to their offspring). It's been changed (and properly so, since the data didn't fit) to punctuated equilibrium and beneficial mutations. But we just don't see this first-hand at all - these are just educated guesses imposed on top of the data, with the underlying assumption that the process is entirely naturalistic. All we see for a fact is that birds stubbornly remain birds, even if their beaks change (and creationists have NO problem with this!) Evolutionists cry that there just isn't enough time to see fish turn into birds. Well, I'm very sorry, but that doesn't somehow let them off the hook. Their theory continues to be unproven, and unproveable. It's a very nice theory - but it's unproven and unproveable.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-26-2005, 01:16 AM | #95 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But given the data, I doubt it
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-26-2005, 06:12 AM | #96 | |
Elf Lord
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Sorry but when you say thingys I am forced to confront the mental image of primordial seas teeming with free ranging phallus shaped objects.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-26-2005, 06:23 AM | #97 | |
Elf Lord
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Many scientists will go even further than you think, and state that conditions for life are indeed stacked in this universe. It's amazingly well suited. And it would take only a few VERY minor adjustments to some fundamental laws to turn it into a VERY hostile place. But beyond that you can't empirically test anything about the likelyhood of such an occurence. For all we know this universe exists right along side a hundred thousand other universes that are competely dead. Of course this is the only one we know about, it's the only one we have access to. We're in the same position as a child who's parents always paint his face purple before he goes to bed. He thinks that's perfectly normal, and that every family does this, and will continue to do so until: He is shocked to find out that his parents were weird! or alternately we find out that he lives in an alternate universe where every child must have thier face painted in order to keep their brains from being sucked out by low flying bain suckers...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-26-2005, 06:58 AM | #98 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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a) Everything science has deducted about the fossil record is wrong b) cats (and dogs) were in fact in some pre-cat/dog form and were still probably incapable of breeding with modern cats (in which case they ARE a different species) c) dogs and cats evolved from earlier species. Not to mention that we have the ability to now create our own experiment by manipulating the genome of an organism. So much so that the organism cannot breed true with the original species. Since from what we know of genetic drift over time leads us to believe that when a genome is isolated long enough it starts to diverge, it is not unreasonable to think that since we can do it in the lab, it can occur under natural conditions. Quote:
What you're saying is that the scientific theory is just a scientific theory. A tautology. A philosophical argument is just a philosophical argument. Quote:
Evolution is so well accepted that it's even starting to have an impact on other fields, like theories about how stars and even new universes form. Quote:
As for the idea of whether or not it was chance and random process or not, what makes you think that evolution has absolutely, anything, ANYTHING, to do with that? I'm tempted to rave almost. You are mixing your apples and oranges again and then complaining that they taste funny! Quote:
The ONLY thing you got correct was natural causes, as in naturally occuring mutations and death. I assume you think death is a natural enough cause, since it's based on entropy and lost energy. Death makes it hard to breed. Naturally. Quote:
What they are not is super-natural. No guiding hand ripped open the fabric of space and dinked in a few code changes. And EVEN if that happened, it STILL isn't scientific because there's no way to test for such a thing. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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02-26-2005, 07:09 AM | #99 |
Elf Lord
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"And something that I hope you can agree with me on - just because there is a lot of time, doesn't mean ANYTHING can happen! "
Umm.. actually, given infinity, and an infinite amount of time, I'm going to actually hazard a guess and say that EVERYTHING has ALREADY happened. The whole thing about infinity though is that the chance of you actually PERSONALLY running into any of those occurences is vanishingly small. So no, I can't agree. Somewhere out there, there is an entire planet where nubile beautiful naked women worship me as their god... Curse infinity I say! curse it! Given that, life in 12-13 billion years is a cinch!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
02-26-2005, 09:11 AM | #100 | ||
Ring-smith
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I agree!
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Any way, we're right! (Note: If evalution was true how would you explain inishal life?)
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