07-05-2003, 11:47 PM | #81 | |
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07-05-2003, 11:47 PM | #82 | |
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I'm just going to jump in wherever I can.
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Genesis 2, starting in the last sentence of verse 4 in the NIV translation: "When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens -- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [footnote: or 'mist'] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground..." Also remember that in Genesis 1:6-7 God separated the waters. "6 And God said, 'Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.' 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so." Here's a scientific theory for you. Some scientists believe that the 'waters above' refer to a vapor canopy that surrounded the pre-Flood Earth like a bubble. This vapor canopy would have had three very interesting effects on the Earth. The first thing is that it would have allowed the Sun's warmth to be more evenly distributed all over the world via the Greenhouse Effect. If the air temperature was fairly constant all over the world, there wouldn't be warm and cold air masses interacting and producing rain, storms, tornados, hurricanes, etc. This is a reasonable explanation for the lack of rain before the Flood. The whole planet would also have had a relatively temperate climate; no deserts, no ice fields, no storms... Sounds a bit like what you would call a Paradise, doesn't it? The vapor canopy would also have acted like sunscreen for the entire planet, filtering out most, if not all of the harmful cosmic rays that reach us today. This is known as the Filter Effect. Many of these rays that penetrate our present atmosphere cause mutation and aging. This could be one explanation why people before the Flood lived so long. The third effect the vapor canopy would have had would be to push down on the air beneath it, causing increased air pressure or a hyperbaric environment. We now know that a hyperbaric situation is very beneficial to living things, causing them to grow larger, metabolize food more efficiently, resist diseases more effectively, and recover from injuries and ailments more rapidly. Just think about how quickly pro athletes heal from soft tissue injuries after time in the hyperbaric chamber. All this is another factor about why people lived for so many years.
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07-05-2003, 11:50 PM | #83 |
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Problem is bub, that the hominid record simply does not support a long lived human. Average ages certainly don't tend to extend much beyond 40.
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07-05-2003, 11:55 PM | #84 |
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I am curious about how you can tell how old someone was when they died by looking at their fossils. Maybe you could shed some light on this for me, since I believe anthropology is one of your strong points.
Please know that I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely wondering.
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07-05-2003, 11:56 PM | #85 | |
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07-06-2003, 12:01 AM | #86 | |
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07-06-2003, 12:07 AM | #87 | |
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07-06-2003, 12:11 AM | #88 |
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No, I'm not talking about teeth erosion, as that is not a good uniform occurance. I'm talking about the rate of calcification that occurs steadily thoughout our life time. As for the cranial sutures: sutures such as the saggital suture start out as being open (a newly born baby's skull is actually soft, and malleable as the sutures are all unfused and open, allowing for ease of birth, and ease of growth.) Throughout our lifetime, these sutures gradually become more fused at a steady rate. You can actually calculate the degree of fusion, and work at the Age of Death of an individual from this.
There are other means that I covered in bioarchaeology, but we didn't cover them in much detail. Things such as the ossification of long bones, and such. Last edited by Sheeana : 07-06-2003 at 12:17 AM. |
07-06-2003, 12:22 AM | #89 | |
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07-06-2003, 12:22 AM | #90 | ||||
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Those inventions certainly aided our growth, but they came suddenly, and we made them. They didn't just come and aid our growth. That simply raises another reasonable question. If we had been around for those hundreds of thousands of years, without getting into sheer population, but related to that issue. How come there never happened to come up technology of any sophisticated level? It's enough time for us to have populated the Earth at least a hundred times over. Instead we remained a minor species with crude tools and weapons. I might be getting carried away with this argument, but it is a problem of rather major proportions. Quote:
The thing I brought up, questioning (from our present knowledge) the slowness (by evolutionary theory) of humanity's known to be exponential growth, was an evidence in support of the Bible. The Biblical exponential growth rate for people from the time of Noah fits the basic numbers we see today. It doesn't at all fit the slow evolution model, though, to me. Meanwhile we have offered numerous other things- that was only the most recent. Quote:
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Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-06-2003 at 12:31 AM. |
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07-06-2003, 12:24 AM | #91 |
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Perhaps because aging didn't work the same way, those things didn't work the same way either. I'm not sure why they wouldn't, but that's just a thought.
But you say that the hominid record doesn't support evidence of people that old. I don't really want to open up the evolutionary can of worms again, but aren't they still looking for the "missing link"?
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07-06-2003, 12:43 AM | #92 | ||
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Leif: Regarding technology - a lot of what we have today would not be in existance without the skill of writing. The development of technology (cultural evolution) is much like biological evolution - certain steps have to be taken before a certain level of technology is attained. And Leif, I highly encourage you to take a class in experimental archaeology. It is easy to discount 'crude tools' when you haven't tried to make an oldawan axe yourself! It is interesting to note that we no longer have the skills to make these so-called crude tools! And the view of what is primitive and what isn't is highly relative. We didn't just have a technological boom in the last one hundred years - this has been developing over the last few million years - ever since the first hominid picked up a rock and used it as a tool. |
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07-06-2003, 12:57 AM | #93 | ||
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07-06-2003, 01:39 AM | #94 | |||
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No, what I was objecting to was the fact that these people, no less intelligent then us (or at least not to any noticeable degree) would neither expand in population size, nor increase in knowledge or tools, to any great level, for these vast amounts of time. Quote:
I think that with each of the three points you made, they were correct, until the last sentence of your post. But the information you've presented is true. It just doesn't answer the question, based upon what we can observe in the past very recent few thousand years, of human ingenuity, speed of production and development of technology, and the awesome speed with which our population reproduces. If there were humans basically identical to humans of our known history, hundreds of thousands of years ago, I think we would have reached our pinacle of civilization ages ago. I thank you for your response though, Sheeana . I do like how you incorporate into your various posts loads of historical or scientific information. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-06-2003 at 01:47 AM. |
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07-06-2003, 01:50 AM | #95 | ||||
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One other interpretaion which seems to correlate to the larger context of the chapter is expressed in the Amplified version: Quote:
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Edit: Whoa! Where did all those posts come from?
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07-06-2003, 02:09 AM | #96 |
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As to the extgrodinary ages described in the bible, you must remember that there is a limit to the number of times our DNA can replicate, without being part of a stem cell, gamete, etc. Even adding extrodinary living conditions and allowing say a 50% increase in age (very generous) 350 years is still well outside all modern limits of age. So, Sheeana is right, this requires a significant genetic variation.
As to the Vapor Canopy Theory, it is unlikely in the present orientation, revolution, and rotation of the earth, that this situation could be stable. There is also no evidence that it actually happened. Glaciers were around well before the time period required for this to fit in the chronology.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-06-2003, 02:10 AM | #97 | |
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http://www.spoilheap.co.uk/hsrspec.htm
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07-06-2003, 02:15 AM | #98 | |||
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The actual writing, for those who haven't looked it up, is "Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan." There are Christians who have taken the stance that the passage means the nations rather than what it says, the earth, because they don't want to disagree with science. The first passage is "And God said, 'Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.' And it was so." I think your analysis is pretty fair, Cirdan, though I don't think there are as many likely ways of interpreting the second one as you seem to imply. Quote:
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Without technology, I agree that we are a weaker species. Weaker than many. Our brains give us a far stronger ability than the other species though, a far stronger one. It's why we didn't use them much that stumps me. |
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07-06-2003, 02:28 AM | #99 | |
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As for the vapour canopy, if this was not to fly off into space it would have to be gravitationally bound to the Earth, as part of the atmosphere- which means it would exert atmospheric pressure on the surface.
If it were enough to cover the Earth in a Flood one mile deep, then the surface atmospheric pressure in Noah's day would be the equivalent of living one mile deep in the ocean. Of course to keep that as vapour takes heat- add to the Earth enough heat to boil a world-wide ocean. Paradise?!? http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/canopy.html And from a Creationist source Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-06-2003, 02:34 AM | #100 |
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Also check out the link in AiG to " Noah's Flood: Where did the Water come From" for their rejection of the canopy theory.
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