07-08-2006, 09:34 AM | #81 |
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so if you were going to make an "anti-jammi567" blade, how would that specifically work? would you use runes and spells, or would it be some other way?
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07-08-2006, 03:30 PM | #82 | ||
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Actually, it is a good question. Let us discuss this example, and if we agree on it, the way further will be easier. So, Jammi, first and foremost, I will have to know your NAME. I could use your penname Jammi567, but I don't think it will work as well as your real one (and your IP number ). In what I have read on magic, the connection of a person with his name (or an object with its name) is believed to be pretty strong. Many people, afraid of evil spells, kept their real names forever secret, using pseudonyms. (I may be wrong, but something of this belief may influence the custom for monks to take another name, different from their old one). - well don't kill me if I am wrong here. Also, as there are such things as spells against broad categories of beings (Orcs, for instance, like the spell on Sting), the nature of the person to be hexed is important. So, Jammi, I would have to know whether you are an elf, maia, human, orc, nazgul, hobbit or troll. Also for a spell, it wouldn't hurt to have a thing belonging to you or your pcture - that is another motive in magic fics and real-life magic practices, but I don't think I saw it in Tolkien. Pretty difficult to hex you, Jammi, with what little I know and have. Now let us take the Witch-King of Angmar and the Cardolani craftsman working on the Barrow-Downs TM blade. What was the WK's real name? no one knew. Did they know he was a nazgul? Hardly. Quote:
The BD blades were likely forged between 1356 and 1409. Angmar Kingdom existed since 1300. So, by 1409, the Wich-Kings reign didn't yet seem extremely long - there could be a mortal King who ruled for 100 years, if he was of Numenorean blood. Neither was he reported to be seen by his enemies in person. So, more than likely they didn't know he was a nazgul... So, no name, no knowledge of his nature, no picture, no lost kerchief... how one makes a spell? ...UNLESS someone told them - and that should be someone from Rivendell. Note that the Cardolani guys and the Imladris Elves were allies against Angmar in the wars of 1356-1409, so some contact with Elrond was more than likely. But in this case, Elrond may have revealed not only the WK's NATURE (a nazgul), but also his REAL NAME. I argued in another thread, that whoever the Witch-King may have been in the Second Age, Elrond and Glorfindel likely knew his identity, but kept it secret - very bad PR for the Line of Elros to have the Chief nazgul among them. Perhaps for once, seeing Cardolan in peril, Elrond revealed the necessary info - and that info, when used in the spell, made the blades REALLY deadly. That may explain, why they didn't affect the other nazgul to just the same extent - their names remained unknown and were not used. Counter-argument would be that Elrond apparently didn't know about the blades. Perhaps the Cardolani didn't have time to show him the blades themselves, before they were all destroyed? Or, perhaps they came by the info about the WK's identity from another source? Or they made a wild guess (much as we are guessing now), and just happened to be right? What do you think? (the rest later...) |
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07-08-2006, 04:23 PM | #83 | ||
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07-08-2006, 04:58 PM | #84 |
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Well, when Treebeard first meets Merry and Pippin he talks about being careful not to tell just anyone your real name. IIRC
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07-08-2006, 05:03 PM | #85 |
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only because ... many mortals... died of old age in the attempt IIRC..
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07-08-2006, 05:08 PM | #86 |
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07-08-2006, 05:27 PM | #87 |
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boy you make me laugh! (in a good way ) jammi!...
...er... long winded entish speak ... entish names being a story of days, weeks, months, years, centuries, ages of the world an' all ! best, BB |
07-08-2006, 05:31 PM | #88 |
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oh, i see.
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07-08-2006, 05:32 PM | #89 |
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it's like drinking whisky .... ... an aquired taste Best BB |
07-08-2006, 05:33 PM | #90 | |||||||||||||||
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If they were zombies, then threatening them was like threatening to send your car to a junk-yard.(Olmer's words). But really, I think Sauron grew so angry this time, not only because of mistakes (after all they searched where he told them to search), but for lagging, wasting precious time, showing little initiative, being little enthusiastic, in general. And that shows they had more free will that one may suppose. Quote:
I would not advise to rely to much on "no will of their own etc... " It was ONLY about the ownership of the One Ring. No nazgul was able to claim it, and had they found it, they would have brought it to Sauron. But does it mean they were enthusiastic and eager being sent like a small commando force into the wilderness, being obliged to travel for months, take care of their horses themselves, cross rivers, face dangers, walked undressed for 17 days, etc. etc. and all this hardship to find the ring for the Fool-Who-Has-Lost-It?? And the result would have led even to their worse enslavement? The new quote shows that they were NOT enthusiastic and eager - they only feared Sauron. Quote:
I still think it s a gaping plothole in the UT. The WK may have not known the name "Shire", as it was local, but still "the land of the Halflings" should have rang a bell in his memory. Halflings are something of a curiosity. He had to know where lots of Halflings lived - his own troops have overrun the land in 1974, and he WAS King at Fornost, however briefly, so he had to think about supplies, taxes, etc. Quote:
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1. Suppose Sauron had no time to look at the blade attentively, if at all, and relied on the Mouth's report. The Mouth, examining the blade, was no wiser than Aragorn or Denethor, so he had no idea what he was letting his enemies take. 2. Suppose Sauron looked AND RECOGNIZED the spell on the blade. Then, the fact that he didn't destroy it, but gave it to the Mouth to show to Gandalf and Co., shows that he wasn't too concerned about the blade's safety. And for me, that means only one thing: the blade was deadly ONLY for the WITCH-KING (who was already killed), not for the other 8 nazgul - the same impression that I got from the new Tolkien quote I posted. And [CAB]was of the same opinion: Quote:
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Look, Glorfindel was MUCH concerned about Earnur's wish to go fight the WK. But he didn't tell him that he had to obtain a special sword to have any hope to win. Neither did he go to the Barrow to fetch some swords for his allies before Fornost battle. And he had plenty of time to do it - about 350 years. NO, he didn't know. Neither did Erlond. I am sure of it. Why didn't the nazgul destroy the blades? We know the WK broke one - by magic. But if there were dozens? Hundreds? Quote:
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As well as you are right about 2 reasons for sending the Wights to Tyrn Gorthad (to secure the Barrows against the remaining Dunedain and to deal a blow to their pride. But the third reason must have been the blades kept there: the Witch-King knew it - see Roccondil's quote Quote:
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07-08-2006, 05:37 PM | #91 |
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c'mon Alcuin post something!!
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07-08-2006, 05:40 PM | #92 | ||||
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Imagine this: “I’m, tellin’ you, Atanamir, if you fight it – fight death, and you do it with everything you’ve got, You’ll win out! Look at me – I’m you father’s brother, and I should be dead, but I’m not. And do you know why? Because I refused to die…” and Tar-Atanamir believed him, and rebelled. The embassy from Valinor urging the Númenóreans not to try to live forever, and to respect the Ban of the Valar, was sent during Tar-Atanamir’s reign. If there were a well-known, long-lived but “un-aged” Númenórean nobleman (or two… or three…) in Tar-Atanamir’s court, hm? do you suppose those might have been the three Númenórean of the Nine? And how exactly would anyone know that three of the Nine were Númenóreans anyhow? “...it is said that among those whom [Sauron] ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race” – Silmarillion, “Akallabêth” There is no textual evidence for the Wise knowing the identity of the three Númenórean Úlairi except for the fact that they knew they were Númenórean – and by the fact that they knew the name of Khamûl, who was an Easterling. If they knew Khamûl’s name, is it such a stretch that they would know the names of some of the others? But there is yet another possibility that you have not considered. We have still not discussed Tom Bombadil, who seemed awfully interested in the Black Riders when Frodo and his companions recounted to him their adventure to that point, and who himself selected the long, leaf-shaped knives – and nothing else (except the brooch for Goldberry) – for the hobbits from the wraith’s usurped hoard. Unfortunately, falling back on the argument that, “Bombadil knew, and he told the Dúnedain smiths,” is not a good argument: we know very little about Bombadil and what he knew. I suppose the best bet is to assume that during the Second Age, the Númenóreans were able to determine that three of their own had been ensnared by Sauron to become Nazgûl. It is entirely possible that they did not know how this was accomplished: there is no evidence that Ar-Pharazôn, for instance, knew about the Ruling Ring (or he would have coveted it). (There is good reasoning the Númenóreans were unaware of the existence of the Rings of Power during the Second Age: see Michael Martinez’ essay, “Shhh! It's a Secret Ring!”) The Nazgûl first appeared around II 2251, during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon, son of Tar-Atanamir. (Appendix B, “The Tale of Years”, says that Tar-Atanamir “takes the scepter” that year; more reliable are probably the dates in “The Line of Elros” in Unfinished Tales.) They would have had the best opportunity to identify the three Dúnedain who fell to Sauron’s schemes. If they were counselors of the king, and they realized that one of the Nazgûl was of royal blood and close to the king’s forefathers, they had every good reason to hide the fact. Quote:
But your quote, Gordis, indicates that at least at first, they did not even realize this was a Nazgûl. Did they find a lock of his hair, cut off, perhaps, in battle? Suppose it took 50, 60 years to determine that the Witch-king was a Nazgûl. Would that be long enough to satisfy the statement that, “it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths,” with the proviso that they only knew he was in fact a Ringwraith without knowing which one? And no matter how they learned the name – from Elrond, old records of their own, or Rumpelstiltskin – they then knew who and what he was. -|- Added in an edit: Quote:
Last edited by Alcuin : 07-08-2006 at 05:48 PM. |
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07-08-2006, 05:46 PM | #93 |
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so much for the concise summary heh guys?
so .... i gotta go read all this heh to join in on the best gig at the moot in many many months? ok ... Good debate btw, BB ...been a while since we had a good one! best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-08-2006 at 05:48 PM. |
07-08-2006, 05:48 PM | #94 | ||
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1 They became mighty (those who were not already mighty, and it is reasonable to believe that Sauron tended to give his Rings to mighty ones - kings and princes- not stable boys). 2.they got "enending life" 3 They got the ability to enter the Spirit world and do magic 4 And only then, " one by one, sooner or later" they became wraiths. Now, Alcuin can tell the story better, but there are ALL reasons to believe that the Witch-King was one of the Royal family of Numenor (a Prince, according to Alcuin, or even a King, according to Olmer). ANYWAY the Witch King most likely was Elrond's relative, descendant of his brother Elros, King of Numenor, and a MUCH closer relative than Aragorn and even Elendil. |
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07-08-2006, 05:48 PM | #95 |
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yes, but where and/or where would they have had chance to learn their real names. if you look at post 83 (mine), i give my reasons why it's much more likely, in fact certain, that the blades were anti-nazgul, not just anti-witchking.
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07-08-2006, 05:53 PM | #96 | |
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Gor:
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..what if he got control of a Palantir, such as the one in Isengard? would he be able to claim the right to it over sauron? (forgetting all the rings / Sauron stuff as an aside for a moment? ) heh? Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-08-2006 at 05:55 PM. |
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07-08-2006, 05:56 PM | #97 | |
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07-08-2006, 05:58 PM | #98 | |
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But I suspect he saw himself as a “rightful heir,” and that he probably believed he was better suited to be the ruler of the exiled Númenóreans than the House of Elendil. His status as a potential king whose elder brother became king instead might have been one of the ingredients in his downfall. Last edited by Alcuin : 07-08-2006 at 06:01 PM. |
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07-08-2006, 06:01 PM | #99 | |
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Alcuin:
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Then just what prey Alcuin are we here for if not to discuss this? Even historians have to have ideas and make shapes out of ideas, events and such known knowledge as is available ... ... how are we different? best, BB |
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07-08-2006, 06:04 PM | #100 |
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very good point butterbeer, and in fact, that's what we've been mainly doing throught the majority of this thread.
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