01-09-2007, 02:44 PM | #81 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 01-09-2007 at 02:46 PM. |
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01-09-2007, 03:54 PM | #82 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-13-2007, 05:34 PM | #83 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I keep on pointing this out, but you keep on not giving a rat's ass. Argument by equivocation destroys any possibility at a reasonable exchange.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 01-13-2007 at 05:35 PM. |
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01-13-2007, 06:02 PM | #84 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Everything is natural when you really think about it.
The question is what is acceptable, and that's relative.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-13-2007, 06:21 PM | #85 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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In a certain sense, everything is natural. In another sense, it isn't.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-14-2007, 01:05 PM | #86 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Of course, those opinions can change, but it typically takes a few generations to do so, and gay marriage is really still in it's first or second generation at the moment.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-15-2007, 02:25 AM | #87 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*eyes the bottle of ketchup; eyes her son*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-15-2007, 08:57 AM | #88 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
http://www.badscience.net/?p=347#more-347 |
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01-15-2007, 03:27 PM | #89 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-16-2007, 12:00 AM | #90 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-16-2007, 12:13 AM | #91 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Location: Los Angeles
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So Rian, you're equivocating eating babies with same sex couples getting legally married? And, and you happen to have a biological urge to eat your son with ketchup, yet, thanks to God and to your decision to resist your biological urges, you - will NOT eat your son? Yikes. And, woah.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 01-16-2007 at 12:15 AM. |
01-16-2007, 12:49 AM | #92 | ||
Elf Lord
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I used to think it was largely environment and family structure, but after witnessing a friend of mine choose to become bisexual simply out of choice, I've been forced to question that view. I do still think that there are many who can't choose to have those instincts, but who have them whether they want them or not. That, I think tends to come from environment and family structure. Exodus International, an organization which works in I think something like one hundred to one hundred and fifty countries, has noted that almost everyone they meet who is homosexual or lesbian tends to have a problem in the family structure, such as a divorce, a single parent, or other kinds of odd structures. My own experience of getting to know lesbians and homosexuals has almost always led to my hearing the same kinds of stories. There also are cases in the ancient world where whole civilizations, such as Sparta, were all homosexual. If it was biology, then they were engineered to be that way, which is pretty darn strange. You'd statistically expect the homosexuals to have been a relatively small percentage of the population, but instead, the whole Spartan army was a homosexual. Athens also had widespread homosexuality and pedophelia, as is indicated from their left-over pottery and as is accepted by many historians. It's pretty unbelievable that these different civilizations had such widespread homosexuality and pedophelia simply from biology. More likely, either environment or choice were the central factors. Those are some of the key reasons why I tend to think homosexuality comes largely from environment. However, I have seen a friend choose to be bisexual. That makes it difficult for me to draw the line and say it is only environment that creates those instincts. Choice may also be a key factor in the creation or magnification of those interests. Quote:
So although it might be natural to eat one's baby, I hope we would all agree that one shouldn't. So just because homosexuality may be natural, that doesn't make it valid or acceptable. Naturalness is not a virtue and does not make anything okay or justified. Saying that something is natural is not a big admission. Nature isn't peaches and cream.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-16-2007 at 12:59 AM. |
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01-16-2007, 01:04 AM | #93 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Quote:
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 01-16-2007 at 01:20 AM. |
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01-16-2007, 02:01 AM | #94 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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So, Rian, if you are up to it, would you mind taking on my counter-statement to you about how eating babies and same-sex marriage can be spoken of within the same argument? If not, whatever, but it was YOUR answer I was interested in, not Lief's, no offense Lief but them's the facts, sir.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 01-16-2007 at 02:07 AM. |
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01-16-2007, 02:06 AM | #95 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Quote:
Here's a quote from a reviewer who posted on Amazon.com, and claims to be a former homosexual: Quote:
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As for Joe Dallas, I don't really know him that well, though I've was in the same Christian group with him for several months when I was younger. Here's an article about him and his ministry: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17208 According to the forward about one of his books on the matter, "The author, Joe Dallas, overcame his homosexual attractions and has been a professional counselor, author and speaker for years on this issue." Quote:
That's what well-meaning Christians are seeking to do as regards homosexuality. We believe it hurts people badly based upon various evidences, so we want to help. If anyone believes someone else is being badly hurt by what they are doing in their private lives, it is loving of that person to try to warn the other. It is unloving to let them keep on doing it oblivious. But if homosexuals don't want help and we try to shove it down their throats, we're doing wrong. We should not force our will on other people's private lives in this matter any more than we should on smoking. Except that it is now discovered that second-hand smoke harms people as well, so that has rather changed that situation. I'll get to that in my next post. Quote:
All I'm doing is believing that what a friend and what an acquaintance tell me is true. That is not arrogant.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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01-16-2007, 02:09 AM | #96 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Quote:
You are grandly arrogant and assuming to take it upon yourself to answer posts that are not addressed to you, but to someone else entirely. I cannot take you seriously; I cannot waste my time and mental energy arguing with someone who acts this way. Ciao, and I am out.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 01-16-2007 at 02:31 AM. |
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01-16-2007, 02:12 AM | #97 | ||
Elf Lord
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I think it probably is right to remove smoking from public places, because second-hand smoke can kill other people. Unless one confines smoking to designated smoking areas, it is shown to be not a private act any more.
And this is where homosexual marriage comes in too. Whereas homosexuality is a private matter, homosexual marriage laws are not private. They are public and affect everyone. When homosexual and heterosexual relationships are equated by law, several things will take place. 1) Marriage loses its meaning. If it is not defined as between a man and a woman, then its definition is up for grabs. Polygamy is the next step. I'm sure that if homosexual marriage becomes commonplace, polygamy will be right around the corner and probably would become law in my lifetime. Other kinds of sexual relationships, though, may very well also gain legal equivalence under the banner of freedom and tolerance. Marriage could become anything. 2) Heterosexual and homosexual relationships are innately different, because men and women are mentally genetically different from one another, so applying laws that have been tried and tested over hundreds of years in many different countries as regards heterosexual unions to the untested and untried homosexual relationships is negligence. It'll be a legal snare, because some laws that have been designed to work for the two genders together will probably not work so well for people of the same gender. Different laws should perhaps be made for homosexual relationships that are based upon tests and studies of what relationships between members of the same gender are like. It'll be a legal mess. 3) I believe homosexuality is harmful, so I don't believe that our government should say it's fine by giving it the same rights as heterosexual marriages have. If our government gives homosexuals those rights, it will be saying implicitly through its action that homosexuality is fine. It will be doing that without having established tests, studies or scientific research to find out. That would be as the medical community saying a new drug was fine without having tested it. What homosexual and heterosexual relationships are like has to be studied more, and comparisons and contrasts made, before they are given legal equivalence. And I also believe that since homosexuality is harmful, innocent people will be harmed if homosexual relationships are given marriage status because they will see the government's verdict and choose to embrace their homosexual instincts because the government says homosexuality is fine by giving it marriage rights. I do not want innocent people to be hurt by the government being misleading. It's the same thing as with abortion nowadays. Often, people think it's okay just because it's legal. If homosexual relationships have marriage equivalence, the government will be saying that they are okay. Quote:
Quote:
*Zips his lips.*
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-16-2007 at 06:18 AM. |
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01-16-2007, 05:40 AM | #98 | |
of the House of Bëor
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Location: Eastwards.
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*** sorry to jump in just like that, without reading all the recent but still lengthy debate, etcetera ***
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(I've been keeping myself back from an urge these past weeks... not because it'd be illegal, just... I'd screw up so many things if I started it, it wouldn't be worth it. And it's not only a sexual urge, no... I'd be more than happy to go out, be together, share things with said person, but there is one big NO fact that brings many things leading to a no-win situation. Not worth it - no acting upon it.) And it goes the same way with homosexuality, I think. I can only think because I am hopelessly straight ( )... but still. You have a choice what to do with what you feel... you can deny it to yourself and/or others, or you can recognize it as a part of who you are, and act upon it or not... to each his/her own... but you can't just wipe it out. Just as I can't wipe out my own heterosexuality. You can't help who you love... something clicks in your mind and heart, or not, just not. Say, if I lived in a community where, for whatever reasons, homo- and/or bisexuality is not only accepted but strongly preferred and encouraged... well, I could live according to those standards if I wanted to be a 'good' member of the community... I might as well find a gal I enjoy being with, living with, even enjoy having sex with; for whom I care with all my heart; but with all this, there still would be a part of me deep inside longing for something else. A part feeling denied. I can't help myself being attracted to men; I know that for sure. And then, it would be up to me to deny it, saying things are good enough as they are, what more could I want; or gathering the courage to go my own way trying to find a way out of my confusion, to discover what is the best for me, and, no doubt, hurting many people who are important for me, and as if it wasn't enough, even going against my community's norms. Er, that last part sounded pretty selfish... but... well, it's not that 'I want that cookie'-selfishness, if you see what I'm trying to say... it's a helluva lot more complicated. Self-denial like this can cause very, very deep hurts in one's soul and health of mind... Well... that's what I think. *ducks the flying stones*
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01-16-2007, 06:30 AM | #99 | |
Elf Lord
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I think you're a very sweet person, littleadanel. Just thought I'd let you know .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-16-2007 at 06:33 AM. |
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01-16-2007, 07:11 AM | #100 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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We've been round this topic many times before, but it's worth saying that homosexuality is NOT harmful. That is the view of the vast majority of independent health professionals and clinical evidence.
However, I do feel that we've made progress in that the "it's not natural" argument can be laid to rest. |
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