09-04-2005, 05:02 PM | #81 | ||
Retired Ent
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 60,631
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Let me ask a question - does anyone here still believe that the relief and rescue efforts were acceptable or understandable? I'm not talking about which agency or which level of government was responsible for the efforts - I'm saying, have the overall relief efforts been good enough for America? SGH? Spock? If anyone thinks the relief efforts have been satisfactory, please post and I'll address that. If not, we can now go about addressing the issue of why the relief efforts were not up to snuff, and who messed up.
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On the official federal website of the Department of Homeland Security, I found this (emphasis added): Quote:
I'm sure the reaction from Louisiana and New Orleans also hindered the rescue efforts, but according to the Department of Homeland Security, the federal government was the one that was supposed to bring them all together and take charge! On August 28th, right before the storm hit, Gov. Blanco of Louisiana officially asked for federal help - here's the letter she sent, and note the date. Personally, I think that since no major hurricane has hit Louisiana since the 60s, it makes more fiscal sense to have a federal agency ready to respond anywhere in the country than an independent, local group that could sit dormant for decades. . However, that was just the most glaring example - Bush continued with his schedule of giving stump speeches about Iraq and domestic policy, and was at a birthday celebration for John McCain. Lief - I've seen your well-supported, logical points and I'll get to them next.
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09-04-2005, 05:06 PM | #82 | |||||
Elf Lord
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A high ranking government official said that the issue of levee maintenance would doubtless be dealt with later. At present the Administration is just focusing on dealing with the disaster. Quote:
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The only other comment I'll make is that perhaps there may be a little truth in this seeming racism in the media. Often blacks belong to the poorer segment of society. This would mean that blacks often might need more than whites do. Therefore it might be possible that when blacks take things, it looks like looting, because they need more. I'm just mentioning the possibility. Quote:
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09-04-2005, 05:14 PM | #83 |
Halfelven Daughter of the Dunedain, President of Entmoot
Join Date: Jul 2005
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I'm going to interupt the politics for a moment. I live just outside of Little Rock and every hotel and motel is full of evacuees. I work at Wal-mart and I have talked to people from N.O. Recently ANG's Bowie Bregade went to LA. The last I heard, Arkansas had at least 22,000 evacuees. Yesterday, my famoly and I went through our clothes and donated 4 boxes of clothes. Can we stop looking at this from a political standpoint and do what we can to help those that need it? I know help was slow, but we can't go around pointing fingers at who to blame. It was no one's fault, just some people couldn't get out on time. Are you going to blame them for that?
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09-04-2005, 05:20 PM | #84 | ||
Elf Lord
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Another point: One difficulty with just flying a bunch of planes over the city of New Orleans and dropping water and food is that it could very likely cause massive rioting. People would struggle to get what they can, and the violence would increase. Distribution has to be done in an organized way, and that requires some time to set up. The National Guard also requires time to pull out, and that has to be done by the state governor.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-04-2005 at 05:33 PM. |
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09-04-2005, 06:56 PM | #85 | |
Quasi Evil
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09-04-2005, 07:12 PM | #86 | |
Quasi Evil
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I don’t understand. What the hell?? Why do this?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-04-2005, 08:47 PM | #87 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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My guess is that it was a criminal gang. Criminals have been the ones getting the most out of this chaos. The rapes and a good deal of plundering are their fault.
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If some people at state or federal level believed a hurricane at New Orleans was highly unlikely, they may have decided, based upon that belief, to use the funds in what they considered to be a more productive fashion.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-05-2005, 03:23 AM | #88 |
Elf Lord
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I think that is a more difficult stance to maintain now it is clear that lack of federal funds was an issue in maintenance of the levees.
However, I agree that we should try to leave off the political stuff for now. It is still valid, and very important IMO, that we consider the causes and contributory factors, though. I don't think we should let the politicians off the hook altogether with "let's just concentrate on helping the survivors". I am glad to hear how some of us here are directly helping out. I am also glad that the US has accepted offers of aid from the UK, Europe, UN etc so my government can help out. At least we remote mooters can feel that we're doing something now apart from the obvious donations to the NGOs. It seems that the situation is under control now. Now for the hard part (counting the dead and helping the victims to rebuild their lives). Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-05-2005 at 03:34 AM. |
09-05-2005, 05:15 AM | #89 | ||
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I just got back from a one week, remote camp. There are no words.
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09-05-2005, 08:36 AM | #90 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
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yeah apparently the uk is today sending half a million food and water packages ...
kind of late you might say... but apparently we've been virtually stoppped doing anything by various US authorities .... though for sure they will have been busy ... busy doing what is another matter Insidious Rex Quote: Originally Posted by Lief Erikson Tax cuts for the wealthier segment of the population allows the expansion of private businesses and companies. It increases employment among less wealthy citizens. Quote:
You got to hand it to Lief to not be affraid to go out on some shaky, or at least very hard to defend limbs here .... i've got him on the ropes in Theology already (kidding!) ... he's trying to defend the morality of mass destruction Actually to my suprise lief i am enjoying our friendly non-partisan exchanges ... though you didn't answer the one KEY important question .... about the RPG Anyway, BACK ON TOPIC (before anyone says ...) i've been reading a lot yesterday about this .... one thing that struck me that of the troops, NG and police etc on the ground ... many especially the National Guard had no orders and didn't KNOW what they were supposed to be doing.... Also, what i find mind bogglingly inept in the very least ... they had a plan to evacuate large numbers to the superdome, yes? ... yet they could not maintain law and order there? There should have been large stocks of water, generators, food, disposable toilets, AND LARGE NUMBERS OF Police, MEDICS AND NATIONAL GUARD to ENSURE LAW AND ORDER, MEDICAL ATTENTION, AND SOME organisation!!! No weapons allowed in .. etc ... ok easy to say in hindsight...but my point is very clear and to me at least, VERY simple and true: they didn't need hindsight to organise the superdome before the Hurricane hit.... electricity, communications, water, medics, food supplies, and many many police and guards to ensure safety! One easy thing to have done for the one place they had decided to take people to! |
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09-05-2005, 09:51 AM | #91 | |
Elf Lord
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On your first point, I think that international protocol states that a recipient state has to request aid before it can be given. We couldn't send anything until the offer was formally accepted. |
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09-05-2005, 12:03 PM | #92 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
About the RPG, I did respond to that at the end of post #580. It would be easy to miss that post, as it's at the very end of page 4.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-05-2005 at 12:08 PM. |
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09-05-2005, 12:55 PM | #93 |
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Butterbeer - they didn't want everyone showing up there.
There was a mass evacuation of New Orleans before the storm hit. 1,000,000 or so evacuated I believe. Those who couldn't leave or didn't want to leave were left - mostly poor black people. Those who couldn't evacuate the city were told to go to the Superdome or the Convention Center. At the convention center there wasn't any supplies. I don't know what the supplies were at the Superdome - but they certainly were not adequate. I guess they did not anticipate so many people, and that NO would flood so much, that the toliets would stop working, and that the electricity would go out. They couldn't prevent people going in there with guns.
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09-05-2005, 02:38 PM | #94 |
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I wonder what the crime/violence rate currently is down there compared to normal New Orleans. Sadly, I doubt it's that different. NO was an extremely violent city.
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09-05-2005, 02:50 PM | #95 | |
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09-05-2005, 02:57 PM | #96 | |
Elf Lord
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then why set it up? they must have known there would be people who had not or could not evacuate? re: guns. why not? You cannot go and check-in on a flight at an airport with guns. if the superdrome had been heavily guarded, manned and organised it would have been easy to maintain order.. 25 or 50 armed NG or police at the door or entrance with guns can easily say to entrants .. please come in good sir... but no weapons allowed in here, thank-you. leave them here with your name or we'll give a you a weapon ticket similar to a cloakroom ticket etc. No questions asked WHY you have weapons good sir, but you ain't taking it inside: we'll look after it for you. A few hundred armed guards, police etc inside and some organisation would have made it a safer place... not a lawless, intimidating, fearful foul stench of a corner of living hell with rape, beatings, murder... theft etc. Last edited by Butterbeer : 09-05-2005 at 03:01 PM. |
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09-05-2005, 09:01 PM | #97 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Location: Reality
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my friend finally turned up last night... all week in an attic with food and water he had stocked up on... another mutual friend from the forum went to new orleans today, picked him up, and took him to his house in arizona to stay 'till things clear up a bit... best news i've heard in a while
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09-05-2005, 09:07 PM | #98 |
of the House of Fëanor
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One of my boyfriend's clients from New Orleans lost everything, everything except the Mercedes he'd hooked him up with, so this fellow and his whole family have packed up all they've got left in that car and are moving out here to L.A. My man said he's going to take care of them once they get out here, which is so like him - he's always so very generous with people, way more so than even I ever am.
Hey, here's an interesting link to look at, about the levees and the city layout: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html.../index_02.html
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09-05-2005, 11:37 PM | #99 |
Elven Warrior
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Location: The bulls-eye for recent hurricanes, but I still love these white sands....nothing compares.
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I just wanted to add a little info about the reponse time in these types of situations.
I stayed here in Pensacola, FL last year when hurrice Ivan slammed into us. It was one of the worst storms this city has every seen and it tore this place up. After the storm passed, it took 2 or 3 days to start bringing in water, ice and MREs. That being said....Ivan was a catagory 3, Katrina was a strong 4....Pensacola (the city) in all above sea level, New Orleans (as we all know)is not....all of Pensacola's roads (except the I-10 bridge) were open, we all know what happened to the roads in New Orleans. Not to mention the fact that FL is very experienced in handling these situations and it still took a couple of days. I am saying all of this so that we do not jump to conclusions about how fast these recovery efforts can take place.
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09-05-2005, 11:40 PM | #100 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
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well said but I fear it will get lost in the hysterics of some.
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