10-25-2002, 05:30 PM | #81 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
markedel, do you mean the foreword written by Christopher Tolkien? My Sil edition is 1998 HarperCollins, and I can't find it either.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
10-25-2002, 07:43 PM | #82 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
BTW, does your keyboard work with those special characters?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 10-25-2002 at 07:45 PM. |
||
10-25-2002, 08:04 PM | #83 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
And then a rather humorous part, where he is discussing some people that criticized the parts where he wrote more formally (he obviously disagreed and thought the differing language styles were an important part of the storytelling): Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
10-25-2002, 08:39 PM | #84 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Artanis, I'm glad you can't find it in your edition either, I was thinking maybe I was just totally brainless and couldn't see it.
Oh, BTW - funny timing - on the way home from school today, my 6 year old asked, out of the blue, if I thought that the devil made Joseph's brothers do the mean things to him that they did (the story in Genesis, where they sell him as a slave, etc). So I answered that I thought that the devil didn't MAKE them do it, but perhaps he put the thought into their heads, but they could have decided that that was a bad choice and chosen not to do it, but because they had already been thinking angry thoughts about Joseph and not trying to fix those angry thoughts, that it made it much easier for them to make that bad choice. Interesting - is he on Entmoot reading this thread while I'm asleep?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-25-2002, 11:51 PM | #85 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
|
hmmm. interesting.
lets say, for arguments sake, that i was clairvoyant and i knew that a catastrophic event was about to transpire( mass murder or such). i had the power to stop it before it happened, but instead chose to let the chips fall as they may. would i be just as much to blame for my decision not to intervene, or would i be justified in my actions under the "free will" assumption?
__________________
"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
10-26-2002, 12:18 AM | #86 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
MM, I think that perhaps you have just read the last couple of posts. If you read thru all the posts on this thread (quite a few, I know, but it's a pretty complex topic), you'll get a pretty clear idea of what many of us would answer. I feel that I have already answered that one, at least - would you like to take a scan thru my posts (if you haven't already) and get back to me?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2002, 12:10 PM | #87 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
|
my post was just a general response, rian. it wasnt directed to anyone in particular. i found your posts interesting. this thread has taken a turn toward religeon. my post was to simplify the whole discussion. replace myself with eru and comment truthfully. i think that christians wont want to do this because instead of inserting eru, they will insert god. and they dont want to say that god is responsible in any way because it goes against what they believe. i have no such problem because god is not an issue in my life.
very interesting topic though, nice to read.
__________________
"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
10-26-2002, 12:44 PM | #88 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Now I would say that it hasn't taken a turn towards "religion" - the thread was originally about a religious issue, although concerning the "religion" of Middle Earth (ie, where there is a Being, Eru, that is a supreme, uncreated being, He created angels, and etc.) In discussing this issue, we have used examples of the Christian religion, and in these examples, I believe that a valid response may be found for the question posed in your initial post. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me - it's so easy to do on Internet discussion boards, where you can't see my expression or hear the inflection of my voice. I didn't mean to be mean, I really thought there was a valid answer to your question in previous posts. Does that make sense? I would like it very much if you would check the posts and respond. Thanks
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
10-26-2002, 12:46 PM | #89 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
ps - and I did say that the God of the Christian faith "took responsibility" for creating free will, which allows for the possibility of evil. See if you can find the post I have to run off to soccer games now, I'll check back later and look forward to your post.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-26-2002, 12:49 PM | #90 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
|
|
10-28-2002, 08:00 PM | #91 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Well then, you'd better close it.
The whole issue in the beginning was predestination. It was labeled as a Silmarillion discussion because it was about Eru and the Silmarillion in the start. The question was about Middle Earth predestination, and since predestination in Middle Earth can so easily be substituted with predestination in real life, it became a hot topic, discussing both Christianity's predestination and Tolkien's, which are both so similar to each other that they are nearly inseparable. I personally would prefer it greatly if you didn't close it. If you want to move it to General Messages, you can. Your the moderator, so use your best judgement as to which place this topic should be in. MasterMothra, I think you're making a few mistakes about the Christian religion. Humanity fell at the garden of Eden. Because of free will, he let it fall. He won't make all of our choices for us, and make them right, and neither will he simply make us do the big choices right. He won't force us into anything, but will let us decide for ourselves. Because humanity fell, sin entered into human nature. Therefore, it isn't our nature to do right all the time, as God originally planned it would be. However, he isn't going to simply let his creation remain in this awful state to which, through its own folly, it has descended to. He let it fall because of free will, but instantly he began planning how to bring it back to him, if he hadn't made the plan already. He sent his son to die on the cross, that we might come to him and have sin removed from our nature, just as it was before. Therefore, although he allows us to commit evil because it would destroy the "us" of us to prevent this evil, he makes provision for us. The sin that exists is our fault, but God leaves the door open for sin in each person to be wiped away. He is working for a better thing than we have chosen for ourselves. Well, this is the Christian theology, and I think that it is that that you were addressing. As far as Eru is concerned, predestination to me is pretty much the same: nonexistant. However, one difference between Tolkien and the Bible which someone pointed out earlier on in this thread is this: In Tolkien's world, humanity and the elves never had one enormous fall. We don't see Sam, Frodo, Aragorn, Gimli, or any of the good characters sinning. Therefore in Tolkien's world there was no need for Eru to send his son to die on the cross, everyone was good anyway. Humanity was corruptable, just like it is in the Bible, but it doesn't start out corrupted. Isildur wasn't guilty until he chose to take the Ring for himself, and so on. In Tolkien's world, some people and elves sin and fall from goodness, but they don't start out damned unless they turn to goodness. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-28-2002 at 08:01 PM. |
10-28-2002, 08:15 PM | #92 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
We can keep the debate comparatively. As long as that is done, it belongs in this forum. If the debate becomes a religious war lacking any reference to Tolkien, then the thread will be closed, but I see no need for it to go in that direction. |
|
10-29-2002, 07:47 AM | #93 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
The Elves also had a fall, though perhaps on a smaller scale: The rebellion of the Noldor against the Valar while leaving The Undying Lands. Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
||
10-29-2002, 12:46 PM | #94 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Well, possibly that is a strong parallel to Christianity. But I don't think that the fall of those men turning to Morgoth or the fall of the Numenoreans were on the scale of man's fall in the Garden of Eden. I said that they were corruptable, didn't I?
When man fell in the Garden of Eden, it infected all of humanity with sin. These individual falls in Middle Earth and Numenor weren't necessarily on the scale of contaminating all of the human race. The guilty were destroyed, while the innocent prevailed, and justice was done. Sister Golden Hair, that's fine with me if you don't move or close this thread. I personally like it more where it is, anyway. |
10-29-2002, 01:45 PM | #95 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Actually, I agree with Artanis here, that the mysterious fall far back in the past did seem to infect all of humanity - it caused a change in the entire nature of humanity - they actually believed that they were immortal in some distant past, and then were changed as the result of some catastrophic event to be afflicted with death. Kind of like the Tree of Life in Genesis - God prevented Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of Life after they sinned, so that they would not be immortal in a sinful state (at least that's how I understand it). Instead, He allowed death, and then Christ overcame death, etc. I don't know if that makes sense or not, I'm kinda tired and may not be expressing myself well. But check out the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth section, in the appendicies, and see if you agree. In fact, Tolkien was starting to get frustrated with it, because he thought it was turning into a "parody" of Christianity. I totally agree about the fall of the Numenoreans, though - that was a sin local to a people group, and not afflicting the human race as a whole.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
10-29-2002, 05:29 PM | #96 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
|
|
10-29-2002, 05:40 PM | #97 |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
It's in Morgoth's Ring, HoME vol 10.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
10-29-2002, 07:19 PM | #98 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I don't understand your abreviation. What is HoME?
|
10-29-2002, 08:32 PM | #99 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
History of Middle Earth, the 12 volune set of JRRT's note and drafts edited and annotated by Christopher T to show the development of the The middle earth stories over a period of around 60 years.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me," |
10-29-2002, 09:12 PM | #100 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
If you go to a bookstore, look for "Morgoth's Ring" on the binding - that's what will catch your eye - I didn't even realize at first that it was part of the HoME series. There are quite a few notes, etc. after the Athrabeth proper, and several on the "fall" alone, so be sure to keep looking until you find them all. Good luck!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë | Maedhros | The Silmarillion Project | 96 | 08-21-2018 12:49 PM |
Demaethor and Amariel | Rosie Gamgee | Writer's Workshop | 14 | 11-13-2007 09:05 PM |
I made a song!!!!! part II | StrawberryIcecream | Lord of the Rings Books | 313 | 05-01-2006 09:43 AM |
Is bringing the Elves to Valinor wrong? | Beren3000 | The Silmarillion | 51 | 12-01-2004 04:25 PM |
The nature of Prophecy in Middle-earth | bmilder | Lord of the Rings Books | 23 | 06-16-2000 04:10 AM |