Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[GrayMouser]

As for the money that Iraq owes, it appears to be about 8 billion to France, 8 billion to Russia and 4 billion to Germany (about the same as America).

Far and away most of the money is owed to Kuwait for war reparations ($100 billion plus); other claimed amounts cover money borrowed from the Gulf States during the Iraq- Iran War ($50 billion) which Iraq claims should be grants for protection against Iran (which is why Iraq invaded Kuwait in the first place).

The Russians argue that if they should forgive Iraq for debts incurred by the tyrannical regime of Saddam, they themselves should be forgiven debts incurred by the tyrannical Soviet regime- and suddenly forgiveness sounds like less of a virtue in Washington.

Meanwhile, members of the "Coalition of the Willing" such as Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Bulgaria expect to be paid for deals made between their former tyrannical regimes and Iraq's former tyrannical regime.

For an overview of the whole mess:

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/4-1...asp?viewPage=1

[GrayMouser]

Boycotts...

"Good-bye Coca-Cola, Hello Mecca-Cola"

Advertising agency McCann-Erickson is advising its American multinational clients to play down their country of origin. An internal memo leaked from its London office and quoted in the Daily Telegraph recently says American companies should not "wrap their brands" in the national flag; instead, they should stress their "strong local roots" in the community. The memo continues: "The war risks tarnishing the reputation of American culture and the mythic 'American dream,' which has long drawn consumers around the world to the United States to live, work or visit."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Apr18.html

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Of course, we do not know all the facts. It might look plain and simple that we should have sent people over to guard those specific places, but we don't know everything that was happening on the military side. The Iraqi people and the people of the world aren't cutting the American military even the slightest amount of slack. Condemning the American flag's being put on Saddam's head for a moment, condemning the demands against Syria, condemning our "occupation", and condemning our not policing and bringing in humanitarian aid to a city of 5,000,000 people within the first few days of our taking it.

Ah, well, as Kipling put it on news of America's first imperial exploit ( subjection of the Phillipines, 1899):

Take up the White Man's burden,
And reap his old reward--
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard--

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Didn't George Bush say in his campaign that he doesn't "do" nation-building?

Either he lied or he does nation-destroying, but doesn't build them up again.

Or just maybe it's the simple fact that the world changed on 9/11. Now it is clear that the UNITED STATES will have to take the lead in nation building. We can't rely on others to do it properly and risk our national security.

[Elf Girl]

So we don't trust the other countries in the UN to do anything? We must take everyone else's matters into our own hands? Acts of terrorism of that magnitude don't only happen in this country, jd.

I feel that this thread is getting very malicious. I will now endeavor to change that. Let's all live in harmony, shall we?

[Aralyn]

Elf Girl the UN has exactly proved itself our best friends or anything, has it? It hasn't done anything so why should we pull it in now? The UN was willing to wait until another attack happened to start doing and even then it's doubtful they would have actually done anything.

[Elf Girl]

There is no proof that Iraq was behind 9/11.

The UN is not our best friend because Bush declared it was useless and stupid in his State of the Union. (And within two minutes said he expected its help with humanitarian efforts afterwords.)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
So we don't trust the other countries in the UN to do anything? We must take everyone else's matters into our own hands?

Oh - you mean we're supposed to rely on the same UN that elected Iraq as the Chairmain for the Disarmament Committee (they were never able to take the post becuase of the war) or Libya who has been elected as Chairman to the Human Rights Committee.

I for one don't trust the UN to handle much of anything -other than supplying aid and humanitarian relief. I'm not going to trust them to build a democracy in Iraq or to bring peace to the region. They haven't been able to bring peace to the world for the more than 50 years of their existence.

Acts of terrorism of that magnitude don't only happen in this country, jd.

Can you tell me where another single terrorist attack caused as much death and destruction as was caused on 9/11?

I feel that this thread is getting very malicious. I will now endeavor to change that. Let's all live in harmony, shall we?

We could if other countries lived in harmony. Go to the palestinias and ask them to stop the suicide bombings and to live in peace with israel. Ask North Korea to live in peace with South Korea, ask the Africa countries to live in harmony.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We could if other countries lived in harmony. Go to the palestinias and ask them to stop the suicide bombings and to live in peace with israel. Ask North Korea to live in peace with South Korea, ask the Africa countries to live in harmony.

But since they don't, let's live in harmony on a small scale, since it seems to be all we can do.

Easter guests have arrived, will answer the rest of your post later jd.

[Aralyn]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
There is no proof that Iraq was behind 9/11.

The UN is not our best friend because Bush declared it was useless and stupid in his State of the Union. (And within two minutes said he expected its help with humanitarian efforts afterwords.)

Um well you must mean besides the fact they refused to disarm, lied about owning weapons and stalled for eleven years?
And there is proof that Iraq supplies Terorists weapons for attacks. No one said that they were behind the attacks. Just that they had to be stopped from giving out weapons or plotting an attack.

And Bush had good reason to say what he did. The UN likes to stall as well. I mean we've given Iraq practcally forever to DO something and it hasn't. It was time to stop waiting.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
There is no proof that Iraq was behind 9/11.

When did I say that Iraq was behind 9/11? The area of the Middle East was behind 9/11 as far as I'm concerned though. As long as the people of the Middle East live with 30% - 50% unemployment. As long as the region remains as it is without freedom - then terrorists will continue to be recruited from that part of the world.

The UN is not our best friend because Bush declared it was useless and stupid in his State of the Union. (And within two minutes said he expected its help with humanitarian efforts afterwords.)

Well - the UN is stupid and ridiculous. Over 50% of Americans now feel that way. They didn't do anythign to help Somalia once America pulled out, when America didn't go into Rwanda the UN didn't lift a fingers as thousands and thousands were slaughtered - yet the world turned to the US and said "Why didn't you do something to stop it?" Funny, but I thought it was the UNs responsibility - couldn't some other member country help? The UN was unable to keep peace in Bosnia and Serbia and required the US to lead NATO in order to put an end to the consentration camps. The UN has not been able to do anything about North Korea.

So - I don't think that the UN does much of anything or is really worth much except as a humantarian organisation.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Boycotts...

"Good-bye Coca-Cola, Hello Mecca-Cola"



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Apr18.html

Well America isn't as reliant on things in this manner such as say France and Canada would be. Yes it would be an impact, however it wouldn't drastically hurt our economy as the two above countries I just named...

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I feel that this thread is getting very malicious. I will now endeavor to change that. Let's all live in harmony, shall we?

Or you can take a peaceful march off of this thread or learn more about the world and use facts in your posts instead of assumptions...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Boycotts...

"Good-bye Coca-Cola, Hello Mecca-Cola"



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Apr18.html

It seems from that article though that the US boycott against France is having a much greater affect though. Maybe the boycott in Europe will gain speed - maybe not though. They'll only be hurting their own economies because Coke and most other similar companies who they boycott - have their manufacturing companies in those countries. So when people in England boycott coke - they're boycotting the bottling company down the street. It ends up putting people in their own countries out of work. Germany really can't afford a higher unemployment rate - it's already 10.5%.

This is sort of sad...

A doctor in Schleswig-Holstein, one Eberhard Hoffman, refuses to treat British and American patients.

I guess he's not much of a doctor - at least he doesn't adhere to the Hippocratic Oath.

It needs to know that some individuals will fight back with decisions about how and where to spend.

As will the US which is demonstrated in the financial hurt that US consumers are giving to France.

But most of the great American brands can testify to the climate beyond the United States becoming steadily chillier over the last few years, as reflected in their sales and profits figures.

Last few years - huh? Mybe it has more to do with the economy then. LESS than 2 years ago was 9/11. Seems to be something else other than the war with Iraq at work here.

Also - I noticed the person who wrote the editorial you quoted is from the Observer. The Observer and the Guardian don't say much of anything nice about the US ever.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Well America isn't as reliant on things in this manner such as say France and Canada would be. Yes it would be an impact, however it wouldn't drastically hurt our economy as the two above countries I just named...

I know - most of the stuff we buy from foriegn companies gets manufactured in their home countries. Most US companies do the manufacturing where the products are sold. When people overseas boycott American products - they just end putting their own neighbors out of work. Coca-Cola may be an American company - but the coke that is drunk in England - is manufactured in England. The Coke that is sold in Germany - is manufactured in Germany. The French wine, cheese, jewelry, porcelain that American's are refusing to buy - is manufactured in France. The US has a huge trade deficit and it is partially because all the stuff that our American Companies sell over seas - is manufactured overseas. Intel has plants all over the world.

When people boycott or destroy a McDonalds - they're hurting the local franchise owner and the employees who work there - more than McDonalds or the US. I think McDonalds biggest problem financially is not that they get repeated boycotted and destroyed in France - but because they should rename the Big Mac the Mini Mac.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
think McDonalds biggest problem financially is not that they get repeated boycotted and destroyed in France - but because they should rename the Big Mac the Mini Mac.

Or it could be the fact that Mcd's and BK taste like [EDITED]!

*Can't believe that people acutually eat that crud*



Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Or it could be the fact that Mcd's and BK taste like sh*t!

*Can't believe that people acutually eat that crud*

Well I actually hate McDonalds. I would bring up British food - but it's better left unsaid - as well as uneaten.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I actually hate McDonalds. I would bring up British food - but it's better left unsaid - as well as uneaten.

Hey there is nothing wrong with a nice bowl of Spotted Dick!......it's good for you (not that I would eat the foul stuff mind you)

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Or you can take a peaceful march off of this thread...

Excellent idea Dúnedain.

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Or you can take a peaceful march off of this thread or learn more about the world and use facts in your posts instead of assumptions...

Since when do the bomb-droppers use facts? Perhaps it is you who should learn more about the world. In the first place, the terrorists WANTED the US to respond by invading Arab countries. All we have done is prove them right in their statement that we are imperialists. In the second place, if Iraq had no oil we wouldn't care one way or the other. And finally, the matters you are stating that the United Nations should have power over are matters it does not have power over because WE created the UN and didn't give them that power.

The point of democracy is to provide a means by which people can resolve their differences peacefully. If people feel they have a voice and some way to get their fair share, they are more than happy to sit down and work it out. The suicide bombings are all by people who feel they are not represented. You can't stop them by making more martyrs. That just makes them crazier. History, Mr You-Should-Learn_More, has shown that only negotiation ends the cycle of hate, and only when those who feel they are disenfranchised begin to feel they are enfranchised do the guerilla tactics and terrorist acts stop.

The world did not change on 9/11. Some sleeping people woke up, but it's still the same world. It's just that things that happened to other people happened to us.