02-07-2006, 05:22 PM | #961 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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02-07-2006, 05:28 PM | #962 | ||
Elf Lord
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02-07-2006, 05:47 PM | #963 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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BTW, I don't believe that would happen. Gods "chosen" were not undone as His chosen. This doesn't exclude followers of Jesus but it doesn't make them the 'new chosen' either, IMO.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
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02-07-2006, 06:11 PM | #964 |
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Radagast, what do you think of the death penalty? If we had Adolf Hitler in our hands, would we be doing right in executing him or giving him a life prison sentence (which all destroys any real future for the person)?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
02-07-2006, 06:16 PM | #965 | |
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02-07-2006, 06:54 PM | #966 | ||
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When God sent the Flood to wipe out the peoples of the Earth, he did so because "their every thought was turned to wickedness." In Revelation 9:20-21, the Lord describes judging the world for its wickedness, and he describes specific acts of wickedness that it commits and is judged for. In Revelation 11:18, the elders who worship God declare, "The time has come . . . for destroying those who destroy the earth." God judges sin. He judges wickedness, not intellectual opinion. If all belief in God was was intellectual opinion, you would be completely correct that it would be very unjust for God to punish or reward people based on their faith or lack of faith. However, God's judgment is on works. Here is what I think the really critically important point is: When one believes in God truly, Christ enters the person's heart and transforms the person so that his or her lifestyle is holy, pure and clean. He wipes evil out of his or her life. He changes us and makes us loving and good. We cannot be good without that divine intervention. God changes humans and makes them completely pure. When he has done this, these people are completely innocent. They no longer do any evil. They no longer commit any wrongdoing. The final stages of this transformation will be completed in heaven, but we already experience it here as well, a good deal. Therefore, when God judges people for unbelief, that unbelief is the root of wicked acts that those people must be judged for. All offenses come from rejecting God's way, and unbelief is the root cause of our rejecting God's way. In the Final Judgment, God will judge people based on their actions. If they have done good in life, he will bless them. If they have done evil, he will punish them. Each person will receive precisely what his deeds deserve. When people believe, God can change them. When they don't believe, he can't. Thus, unbelief is probably the key root of evil in our lives, and belief that allows God to change us and make us holy brings our salvation. God won't judge anyone unjustly. He will judge us in accord with what our deeds deserve. Punishment will be in proportion to the degree of sin. However, humanity can be divided into two sections, those who believe and those who don't. Those who believe in Christ will be good, pure and completely spotlessly clean. Those who don't believe cannot be good, because they have rejected the only way of being cleansed of their wickedness. Instead, by the time the Last Day comes around, they will all have committed what the scripture calls, "the sin that leads to death." So belief and unbelief are central, because from belief or unbelief all of our actions spring. From belief in God spring all good actions, and from rejection of God spring all bad actions.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-07-2006, 09:39 PM | #967 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Have you taken a look at our criminal justice system of late? People who do horrible things, continue to do horrible things in and from prison. RTB's reasoning is sound.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
02-07-2006, 09:42 PM | #968 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-08-2006, 10:44 AM | #969 |
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Lief, we get back to the same thing - I don't think it's needed! Why kill billions when you don't have to? I haven't got any good explanation. I can't except it's the 'only way'.
And again - I find it mean and merciless to kill a person because of his belief. The same way I don't think a person who believe in Jesus and is still mean should survive such an occurance (and you might say there's no 'real' christian who's evil), I don't think an atheist that all bad he did in the world was to curse God should be punished. It's completely unfair and definitely not good. If someone did more good than evil and will still be murdered, it would be very unjust. I don't understand how God can't make non-believers perfect. Can't! As in not possible to God! Sort of contradicting Christianity isn't it? |
02-08-2006, 11:04 AM | #970 |
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Ah, but Radagast,
if God MADE people be perfect, there would be no free will, just automatons; and, you can't predicate of God nonsensicality. IF two mutually exclusive alternatives exist, they remain mutually exclusive even though it is God you speak of. Like, if God is all powerful, He can make a rock so big He can't lift it. Since God cannot make a rock so big He can't lift it, He can't be all powerful. Nonsense postulated of God remains nonsense. Of course, that is based on the concept that to be made in the image of God is to participate in rationality. The underlying assumption is that God is rational.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-08-2006, 11:15 AM | #971 | ||||
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My main point here is the belief we're talking about here is not mere intellectual belief, for when one believes in God, that person is transformed. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-08-2006, 12:17 PM | #972 | ||||||
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Lief said God can't make non-believers perfect (and thus not kill them) because they don't believe in God. I disagree, and I don't think it has much to do with free will (in which Lief doesn't believe anyway). Quote:
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I don't tihnk God is good, if what you say is true. I've read your posts about why you think God is good and it can also be explained by a neutral God, or even a bad God. But I think it would be better if we leave that be.. Quote:
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02-08-2006, 01:04 PM | #973 |
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RtB,
How many did God call before Abram answered "yes"? Any? Then they were free to refuse and did. None? Then Abram answered yes on the first go (or was it the second or third, etc.). Abram however was not perfected in his behaviour and suffered consequences. Likewise, Moses. Human response is free to respond to God or not, apoint about which I and Lief disagree. But our disagreement is rather like that of the prophets who said of God that all Israeli responses were "caused by God" in the sense of "used by God". Israel could have responded affirmatively to God when He called for repentance, just like Abram and Moses responded affirmatively. Which brings us to Isaac as sacrifice. Did he submit voluntarily?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
02-08-2006, 04:28 PM | #974 | |
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Since nobody's perfect, IMO, there's no point in judging someone to go to hell because he killed an ant when he was 7. Moses and Abraham probably went to heaven. (but then again they didn't believe in heaven) And btw, I think Abraham is a bad person himself, for accepting to sacrifice his son just to prove his love and faith to God. |
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02-08-2006, 05:45 PM | #975 |
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That's indeed a troubling story at first glance, Rad, but I think there's more to it than a surface reading will give.
For one thing, remember his times - sacrifice, even sacrifice of your children, was not an uncommon thing. Secondly, and this is extremely important to me, the Bible states that Abraham KNEW that God could raise Isaac from the dead. So the way I look at it, after multiple readings of that story and surrounding stories and background info and lots of thought, is that Abraham is getting to know this God who has called to him personally, and is different from the gods of his fathers and the gods of the people around him. Then one day, this God acts like those other gods in the area and calls for a child sacrifice. Abraham, KNOWING in his heart that this God is different and can raise Isaac up again, (because even getting Isaac in the FIRST place was a miracle, given the ages of he and his wife, and that Sarah was WAAAAY past child-bearing years) decides to obey, although I imagine with a sadness that this God has this aspect in him like the other gods. Then right before the blow falls, this God stops him! And what's more, this God provides the sacrifice himself! (a beautiful "picture" of how God will provide His Son Jesus himself for the sin sacrifice required of us). And then this God goes even further and makes the covenant with Abraham, and contrary to all custom, this God passes through the slain animal Himself, and Abraham doesn't (normally both sides would pass thorough, meaning "let this happen to me if I don't keep my side") - meaning that God takes ALL the responsibility of the covenant onto Himself. Such depth of teaching could never had taken place if God had not called Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. And note that God Himself stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac.
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02-08-2006, 06:14 PM | #976 | |||
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God is good, so man ultimately wants good, though he is inclined to do bad becuase of Adam's sin and because he thinks that thing will bring good. If we did'nt have free will, things would be very very different. (note: if God was bad, it would be "good" to us, and our good now would be "bad" "there".) Quote:
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02-09-2006, 12:08 PM | #977 | |||||
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02-09-2006, 12:46 PM | #978 | |
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Actually I believe Moses and Elijah were seen "ascending to heaven in chariots"
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02-09-2006, 01:21 PM | #979 | |
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Elijah and Moses did. But otherwise...no, at least the bible doesnt mention any other names besides those two.
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02-09-2006, 02:10 PM | #980 |
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IF Abraham knew he'd be resurrected?????!!!!!
What about Isaac? . . . . . . . . . . . At best Isaac and Abraham would have had the type of faith exemplified by Aslan in his self offering to replace Edmund. (Rather like another famous Jewish teacher!)
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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